bhrubin

I also think that AA does not fly enough transpacific flights which necessitate a F product--which is where F still holds larger sway, both because of the longer flight times and because the competition from Asia is more severe. AA's biggest problem is that they don't offer enough transpacific like UA (which owns the market compared to DL and AA). AA has been rumored to be considering making LAX their West Coast hub for exactly that reason. That's also the reason DL has been turning SEA into their newest hub.

bhrubin

I agree that many posters on this thread are focused more on the future. Yet the fact is that UA will have far more F in its fleet for a considerable time into that future--something no one seems to be conceding. UA has too many transpacific routes alone that it can replace all its equipment on them with that having only 2 classes. For the foreseeable future, therefore, UA's lead on F compared with AA and DL is a lock. We can debate what foreseeable future might be, but I'm guessing for the next 10-12 years at least, UA will have far more F than AA and DL...and possibly quite a bit longer than that.

I'm only a big fan of UA GF because I can get it as an award--almost anytime I want. It may cost more miles now after the devaluation, but I've already discovered the silver lining there is the fantastic availability when I want it.

People try to predict the markets and so often fail...just as people herein spend countless hours trying to predict what the airlines will do...and so often fail again. I'll focus instead on the here, now, and foreseeable future. For F, UA wins over AA and DL with supreme ease.

okrogius

There's been plenty of commentary here that A350s will not have F (35 ordered and 40 options). There are another 50 787s ordered and 35 options (also no F). How long do you think it will take for those to enter the fleet? And what do you think will be retired at roughtly the same rate as those planes enter?

It's hard to compare retirement schedules of AA 772s and UA 763s/772s (especially with the A350 delivery schedule being so vague - but hopefully that's only a year away), so you'll end up with some variance on a year-to-year basis; however, it's highly doubtful that there's a substantial amount UA F left in 3-4 years.

Sez_Who

I will concede that.

But this is what you will not concede. You only fly up front because it only costs you miles. If you had to actually pay to sit up there, you wouldn’t do it. Therein lies the problem.

If UA continues to keep their F cabin but can’t fill it with people who will actually pay to sit up there, why should they continue it? Having bragging rights to being the largest U.S. F carrier won’t pay any of their bills. If you were running an airline and wanted to cut $2 billion in costs and knew your F cabin was a financial drain, what would you do?

kevanyalowitz

You'd cut it. And you'd end up losing people paying for it, however few. Now that F is gone the remainder of your best customers (GS) that pay for expensive business fare and upgrade have a decision to make. Some stay and pay the same amount but sit in business, some stay and start buying cheap Z/P fares, and others defect to other 2-cabin airlines that have better hard and soft products. Then you realize you need to start looking for more cuts...

bhrubin

I have never argued the point that I am using miles to fly in F. So why am I conceding? I agree again that were I to pay for F on a route that SQ, CX, or EK or comparable flies, I likely would not choose UA. Of course, if UA in F is HALF the price of F on CX, SQ, or EK, I might have chosen UA. Just because I can afford it doesn't mean I always think it's worth spending it: I can afford to stay in Aman, FS, Peninsula, and the like, but sometimes I find it just as fine to stay at a W or Le Meridien. It depends where I'm going, who I'm with, and what I'm doing once I'm there.

I've not said it is only for bragging rights that UA has the largest number of F seats among US carriers.

I present the possibility that like us, other business travelers who pay for business class (e.g. the good and best customers for any airline), want to use their miles for F or J when we travel for pleasure with our spouses, friends, or families. UA offers that to us, and AA doesn't nearly as much. DL doesn't at all. That alone has kept both me and my husband as UA customers--paying business class fares often. So while WE might not be paying for F, we ARE paying for J...and we wouldn't necessarily stick with UA if we couldn't get the award tickets in F as we can. There certainly are many other business travelers who think the same way. THAT is revenue, and that may be part of the equation for UA.

There also ARE people paying for F on UA--I meet them all the time since we often end of talking about it when flying! I've met people whose companies only permit flying on UA in F, people who prefer F and therefore upgrade from J, people who couldn't get F on the CX or SQ flight or wouldn't pay more for those flights, etc. I got no numbers, but I know it happens.

You may not agree or believe it, and that's fine! You have AA and DL (or foreign carriers) to enjoy. I love that! That's less people for me to have to worry about trying to grab my UA awards in F.

acvitale

If AA Only had 14 77Ws with F that would be correct.

AA also offers its A321T fleet with the best F class experience of any domestic carrier and until they are retrofitted 47 772s with a fantastic F product.

UA as noted is NOT taking deliveries of addl aircraft with F class and AA is continuing to take deliveries of 77Ws.

Moot argument and will likely change again. Frankly, I do not see the need for the F class product when the new J class product AA has is superior to what is currently marketed as an F class product.

GNVFlyer

I think we will see this trend of US carriers doing away with F service as Gulf and Asian carriers which offer a level of service which attracts the few full fare F passengers out there. If people are not willing to pay, F seats will not remain on international routes (and say what you want, Gulf and Asian carriers beat both AA and UA hands down)

bhrubin

I am discussing international F. You are discussing domestic F in 3 classes of service. There is a big difference.

OTOH, I agree that as the J class products continue to improve, F will be less of a factor in the USA market.

Sez_Who

Maybe you are speculating but DL will not reverse course until the market says it will PAY for intl F. Don’t hold your breath, DL already beefed up their J cabins with all-aisle access lie-flats, AVOD IFE, Heavenly comforters, and a couple pillows. Definitely not the same as intl C cabins but it is a product that the public will pay for with $$$ and far ahead of UA’s J cabin. That’s where the money is and where UA needs to go.

As for JFK-LHR, much more complex that you present. DL needed this additional routing and VX was available. DL picked up a 49% interest in VX and this gives them additional – and much needed – access to LHR. Working out well for both airlines.

If we apply your reasoning, perhaps UA should also be marketing that they offer more RJ flts than any other airline. That makes them #1 so they should take advantage of this.

But seriously, I understand your personal interest in UA keeping their C cabin but it is exactly because of too many people like you that they can’t.

raehl311

Wait, why would I redeem international F on UA again?

eponymous_coward

F is Upgrade/Award/NRSA class, which is why you might be in it.

(I actually saw it available more often on award than C when UA flew SEA-NRT. I'd take it at a modest premium over OZ C out of SEA in slanty seats. Of course, UA left that route... Funny how F didn't save their bacon there, huh?)

UA will obviously have F for a while, because they aren't going to spend money ripping out perfectly good plane interiors before they've gone through their useful life. Case in point: their beater pre-IPTE F, that they kept around for quite a while, duct tape, videotapes and all.

I'll believe that they are interested in investing in GF for the longhaul when they announce a new plane with it. People can poo-poo the insiders who say it's not in the cards all they want while they wish for a pony... but this is an airline that apes Delta and is headed by a management team that didn't bother with 3-class F either when they ran CO. I am skeptical that they'll buck industry trends but I guess we will see who's right soon enough. Enjoy your F redemptions while you have them.

elitetraveler

UA GF may be the worst F product in the World -- frankly I can't think of a single F product that's worse - and I'm being serious.

Think of every airline on the planet and name one that's worse than UA --- you might be able to make an argument on the soft product side that a couple of the Chinese airlines are weak -- maybe AI or KU?

I will say the UA IFLs are ahead of AA FLs in terms of being "the best of the worst."

Always Flyin

Exactly right. I hope everyone has read this synopsis--twice.

The number of billionaires in the world is actually pretty darn small.

I have a number of clients who fly private domestically, but the aircraft acquisition costs for a long-haul international capable aircraft, coupled with the operating costs, make for a far, far smaller number who fly private internationally. They fly paid F on long-haul international. Not one flies UA on those trips.

Have you flown the AA 77W in F? It is a very good product for a U.S. airline and I prefer it over BA.

Try and find an award seat in F between LAX and LHR on the new AA 77W.

To get out of the pathetic business class cabin?

Configuration discussions? Sure. About which C-class cabin to use. I haven't heard anyone say UA is installing F on the A350s or 789s.

The E+ economics were available in the merger for CO to see the monetary performance. UA has no numbers for what happens when you dump F so there is only one way for management to find out. As a result, the analysis between the two is completely different.

The premier network of its peers. Wow. Sounds so impressive. So Jeff like.

Then why is it with that "premier network," and lets not forget its wonderful 787, that UA's PRASM lags DL and AA?

What good is a network if no one wants to fly on you?

United is now a carrier for those locked into captive hubs, those on corporate contracts (and those contracts are diminishing in number), Kayakers, and those who just don't know any better. The real money is going elsewhere.

Eastbay1K

No, I'm not missing the point. I never said there wasn't any "value for F for an airline unless it's paid." But to the extent that there's a value, it is mostly in the C>F upgrades. In the case of UA, it may also be in the revenue sharing relationship they have with LH. I don't pretend to know any details of same, but I do wonder if there will be some detriment if UA doesn't offer an F product, no matter how inferior it may be to LH.