Originally Posted by
spin88
I think any discuss of International F should acknowledge that different hubs have very different demand patterns from folks able/willing to pay $10-20K for an international long haul flight.
In the US, LA, SF, and JFK (note not EWR) have that traffic. There is some in DFW, some in MIA, and some in ORD, that is about it. Houston has very little of it, none of DL's hubs (ATL, MSP, DTW) have a lot of folks wanting $10-20K seats.
And then from those cities (LAX, SFO, JFK, to a lesser extent DFW, MIA, ORD) there are only a few places with the demand. LHR is No. 1, after that the ME markets, then HKG/SIN/Tokyo. There is also some true F demand into GRU and PEK/PVG/ICN. But beyond that, its a come on
"reward" for those buying lots of J.
Delta made its 2 class decision (as did PMCO) at a time when they did not have a presence in these markets. Delta might rethink this as it builds out JFK and LAX, but for now they have gone with the best (till AA gets installed) installed J product of any US airlines. It fits their route profile.
Both AA and UA on the other hand are in the markets to be able to (on some routs) sell a true FC product.
AA is still doing it (both on "flagship" 321Ts, and the 77Ws. Yes, its not SQ of CX, or EK, but its a nice product.
UAL OTOH, has clearly given it up with just awful soft product. The seat is fine, but the seat will only hang on because its cheaper to leave the seats (and upgrade J passengers) than redo the planes. I know folks who fly (or whose companies buy) F, none fly UAL in F, and none would except the joke soft product and the poor service at $10-20K a pop. They fly SQ, BA, CX, EK, etc.
OP, at this point, AA is making an effort to do a real F product, United, not so much. In a few years, United will just give up, and it will be like the old NW first Class seats that were given to the top tier elites who bought (or redeemed for) J on the few planes that still have it.
Exactly right. I hope everyone has read this synopsis--twice.
Originally Posted by
golfingboy
I think the main challenge with F cabin is those who can afford it flies private - you won't find many billionaires flying in F. That leaves for a significantly smaller market of paid F traffic.
The number of billionaires in the world is actually pretty darn small.
I have a number of clients who fly private domestically, but the aircraft acquisition costs for a long-haul international capable aircraft, coupled with the operating costs, make for a far, far smaller number who fly private internationally. They fly paid F on long-haul international. Not one flies UA on those trips.
Originally Posted by
787fan
Thanks for the good laugh. I'm literally rolling on the floor. Even AA fans only brag about being able to redeem for CX QF etc but never brag about AA's own F product.
Have you flown the AA 77W in F? It is a very good product for a U.S. airline and I prefer it over BA.
Try and find an award seat in F between LAX and LHR on the new AA 77W.
Originally Posted by
raehl311
Wait, why would I redeem international F on UA again?
To get out of the pathetic business class cabin?
Originally Posted by
tuolumne
The company, from conversations with friends familiar with the matter, is still actively engaged in analysis on which configuration to use on the A350 aircraft. CAL management came into the merger with the mindset that E+ and 3-cabin F were superfluous. The fact that they've backtracked from the former, and are still undecided about the latter, speaks volumes.
Configuration discussions? Sure. About which C-class cabin to use. I haven't heard anyone say UA is installing F on the A350s or 789s.
The E+ economics were available in the merger for CO to see the monetary performance. UA has no numbers for what happens when you dump F so there is only one way for management to find out. As a result, the analysis between the two is completely different.
Yes intl. F class is being right sized around the world, but that doesn't spell its end. UAL still has the premier network of its peers, with hubs in the top business and governmental centers of the largest economy in the world. If they can't make F class work in that environment, that's a choice they've made. This is far from an easy zero-sum decision, and the success of either paths is directly tied to their respective executions.
The premier network of its peers. Wow. Sounds so impressive. So Jeff like.
Then why is it with that "premier network," and lets not forget its wonderful 787, that UA's PRASM lags DL and AA?
What good is a network if no one wants to fly on you?
United is now a carrier for those locked into captive hubs, those on corporate contracts (and those contracts are diminishing in number), Kayakers, and those who just don't know any better. The real money is going elsewhere.