Mar 6, 2015, 4:46 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Common issue
Expert Mode shows ..... T9, L9, K9, G9, N9 but you not able to get united.com or other sites to provide a fare for N or G or .... WHY?
There are three requirements to be able to book a fare class
1) there needs to be a fare rule for that fare class for your O/D.
2) you need to meet all the requirements for the fare rule -- advance purchase, days of the week, min stay, qualified flight numbers, qualified routing (including a possible RT requirement), .....
3) there needs to be inventory in the fare class
So if the cheapest fare rule filed is K, you will not be able to book N or G
Even if a fare rule is filed and there is inventory then you still need to meet the fare rule requirements.
As for searching, if multiple fares qualify, the cheapest will be displayed unless you specifically force a fare class. While the fare hierarchy will generally match the cost, occasionally a high fare class will be cheaper than a lower fare class due to differences in fare flexibility such as refundable, changeability, ....
So there are multiple reasons for why a specific fare class is and not is offered. Confusion on this is one reason UA has been reluctant to make fare class inventory easily available and the reason UA requires one to accept the following terms before providing access to Expert Mode:
How can you see the fare rules?
While booking (on the first "Review trip itin" page) and after booking (on the online view of the reservation) , UA will makes them available -- but this is only if UA will display that particular fare.
Before booking or if unable to get access on UA, there are paid services -- KVS, Expert Flyer. ... can provide access to all published fare rules.
Related threads
Decoding the alphabet soup - New fare buckets for UA
How to get a P class fare to Europe?
Understanding Airline Inventory (non FT blog posting)
Desired Fare Class is available but has insufficient space, what can be done?
Archive: Fare Class has Inventory - Not Able to Book into? {Archive]
Expert Mode shows ..... T9, L9, K9, G9, N9 but you not able to get united.com or other sites to provide a fare for N or G or .... WHY?
There are three requirements to be able to book a fare class
1) there needs to be a fare rule for that fare class for your O/D.
2) you need to meet all the requirements for the fare rule -- advance purchase, days of the week, min stay, qualified flight numbers, qualified routing (including a possible RT requirement), .....
3) there needs to be inventory in the fare class
So if the cheapest fare rule filed is K, you will not be able to book N or G
Even if a fare rule is filed and there is inventory then you still need to meet the fare rule requirements.
As for searching, if multiple fares qualify, the cheapest will be displayed unless you specifically force a fare class. While the fare hierarchy will generally match the cost, occasionally a high fare class will be cheaper than a lower fare class due to differences in fare flexibility such as refundable, changeability, ....
So there are multiple reasons for why a specific fare class is and not is offered. Confusion on this is one reason UA has been reluctant to make fare class inventory easily available and the reason UA requires one to accept the following terms before providing access to Expert Mode:
This is not a forecasting tool. Availability levels in certain fare classes should not be interpreted as indicating that we will make other fare classes available.
The presence of a particular fare class does not mean that there is a fare associated with it. For example, we may offer availability in a discounted fare class, but that does not necessarily mean we have published a fare that corresponds to it.
The presence of a particular fare class does not mean that there is a fare associated with it. For example, we may offer availability in a discounted fare class, but that does not necessarily mean we have published a fare that corresponds to it.
While booking (on the first "Review trip itin" page) and after booking (on the online view of the reservation) , UA will makes them available -- but this is only if UA will display that particular fare.
Before booking or if unable to get access on UA, there are paid services -- KVS, Expert Flyer. ... can provide access to all published fare rules.
Related threads
Decoding the alphabet soup - New fare buckets for UA
How to get a P class fare to Europe?
Understanding Airline Inventory (non FT blog posting)
Desired Fare Class is available but has insufficient space, what can be done?
Archive: Fare Class has Inventory - Not Able to Book into? {Archive]
Fare Class has Inventory - Not Able to Book into?
Dec 13, 2023, 1:07 pm
#151
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K & 2MM, MR Titanium
Posts: 459
Thanks for that information. I was looking to use only 40 PP each way. The lower fare buckets requiring 80 PP were only about $200 cheaper round trip, which means the additional 40 PP each way would only be valued at $100 / 40 = $2.50 per PP. At that poor redemption rate, I would rather keep the extra 80 PP and use them for another trip later in the year. Unlike some others in this forum, I typically use all my PP in a given year.
Dec 13, 2023, 2:18 pm
#152
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Great advice and I tried it, but still got the error message. I forgot to mention that I had actually searched two ways to book the tickets (in addition to searching for W class I also searched for flights where PlusPoint upgrades to Polaris were avaiable for 40 PP each way). Both ways did not allow me to ticket it and I would assume the latter (PlusPoints upgrade availability) would not just look for W fare class but all upgradeable fare classes including V, no?
The bottom line is going to be some sort of issue with the non-UA flights not posting correct inventory to the United website; the information transfer isn't perfect and when trying to ticket it will actually go out and get LH to confirm.
Dec 13, 2023, 2:21 pm
#153
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
Great advice and I tried it, but still got the error message. I forgot to mention that I had actually searched two ways to book the tickets (in addition to searching for W class I also searched for flights where PlusPoint upgrades to Polaris were avaiable for 40 PP each way). Both ways did not allow me to ticket it and I would assume the latter (PlusPoints upgrade availability) would not just look for W fare class but all upgradeable fare classes including V, no?
If you want to share the exact itinerary, someone here might be able to look into the inventory problem.
The bottom line is going to be some sort of issue with the non-UA flights not posting correct inventory to the United website; the information transfer isn't perfect and when trying to ticket it will actually go out and get LH to confirm.
The bottom line is going to be some sort of issue with the non-UA flights not posting correct inventory to the United website; the information transfer isn't perfect and when trying to ticket it will actually go out and get LH to confirm.
LH uses married segment logic very aggressively, including with OAL inventory. So it's entirely possible for there to be W inventory on, say, FRA-WAW, but not on IAH-FRA-WAW. UA's systems don't always deal with this properly, unfortunately.
What fare comes up if you search on the LH website?
Dec 13, 2023, 2:29 pm
#154
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K & 2MM, MR Titanium
Posts: 459
If you want to share the exact itinerary, someone here might be able to look into the inventory problem.
The bottom line is going to be some sort of issue with the non-UA flights not posting correct inventory to the United website; the information transfer isn't perfect and when trying to ticket it will actually go out and get LH to confirm.
The bottom line is going to be some sort of issue with the non-UA flights not posting correct inventory to the United website; the information transfer isn't perfect and when trying to ticket it will actually go out and get LH to confirm.
Dec 13, 2023, 2:38 pm
#155
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
Thanks for further clarity on the issue of United tickets with partner flights, including Lufthansa Group (LHG). I find it interesting that I have flown probably 100+ United tickets with LHG flight segments over the past 25 years without knowing such a problem existed.
That said, I don't want to write this off as normal, either -- generally they're able to push through clean inventory data reasonably soon after it changes on their side. But I don't think you'd be running into this problem without the LH flights either.
I'm glad you found another flight that met your needs.
Dec 13, 2023, 2:39 pm
#156
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K & 2MM, MR Titanium
Posts: 459
Yes, I don't think the issue is on UA's side, exactly...
.. I think that this is the problem.
LH uses married segment logic very aggressively, including with OAL inventory. So it's entirely possible for there to be W inventory on, say, FRA-WAW, but not on IAH-FRA-WAW. UA's systems don't always deal with this properly, unfortunately.
What fare comes up if you search on the LH website?
.. I think that this is the problem.
LH uses married segment logic very aggressively, including with OAL inventory. So it's entirely possible for there to be W inventory on, say, FRA-WAW, but not on IAH-FRA-WAW. UA's systems don't always deal with this properly, unfortunately.
What fare comes up if you search on the LH website?
Dec 13, 2023, 2:59 pm
#157
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat 1.997MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Plat/LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 66,861
But LH W fares on UA or LH tickets can not be upgraded with PlusPoints
Also UA fares searches likely don't validate married segments
It is generally a flaky function.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 13, 2023 at 3:08 pm Reason: It is generally a flaky function
Dec 13, 2023, 3:18 pm
#158
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
Fare searches on UA are faulty if a partner flight is included.
PlusPoints can be used for UA or LH on LH tickets.
But LH W fares on UA or LH tickets can not be upgraded with PlusPoints
Also UA fares searches likely don't validate married segments
It is generally a flaky function.
PlusPoints can be used for UA or LH on LH tickets.
But LH W fares on UA or LH tickets can not be upgraded with PlusPoints
Also UA fares searches likely don't validate married segments
It is generally a flaky function.
On this particular route, for whatever reason, LH must be binding a UA W fare to some different inventory bucket. So when you use a fare search on UA, you end up with W on each segment, which sounds like it would be correct, but in this case isn't. The good news is that you can probably buy the UA W fare, but it would take an agent competent enough to know how to read into the fare, find the appropriate inventory bucket for the LH leg, and then auto-price. It's just, you probably can't do it through the UI (but try multi-city search).
Dec 13, 2023, 4:04 pm
#159
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: IAD
Programs: UA 1K & 2MM, MR Titanium
Posts: 459
Fare searches on UA are faulty if a partner flight is included.
PlusPoints can be used for UA or LH on LH tickets.
But LH W fares on UA or LH tickets can not be upgraded with PlusPoints
Also UA fares searches likely don't validate married segments
It is generally a flaky function.
PlusPoints can be used for UA or LH on LH tickets.
But LH W fares on UA or LH tickets can not be upgraded with PlusPoints
Also UA fares searches likely don't validate married segments
It is generally a flaky function.
i am very averse to booking LH tickets because of bad experiences in the past, including 2 weeks ago when I was caught up in the Munich meltdown. It took me 12 hours and many calls to finally be rebooked after a canceled flight, it took another 6 hours before the LH ticketing team refused to ticket that flight change despite it being made by a LH reservations agent, and then it took me 30 seconds to cancel the (UA) ticket for a refund and rebook myself for the next day. If it were a LH ticket, I would have been hosed.
Oh, OK, now I know what's happening.
On this particular route, for whatever reason, LH must be binding a UA W fare to some different inventory bucket. So when you use a fare search on UA, you end up with W on each segment, which sounds like it would be correct, but in this case isn't. The good news is that you can probably buy the UA W fare, but it would take an agent competent enough to know how to read into the fare, find the appropriate inventory bucket for the LH leg, and then auto-price. It's just, you probably can't do it through the UI (but try multi-city search).
On this particular route, for whatever reason, LH must be binding a UA W fare to some different inventory bucket. So when you use a fare search on UA, you end up with W on each segment, which sounds like it would be correct, but in this case isn't. The good news is that you can probably buy the UA W fare, but it would take an agent competent enough to know how to read into the fare, find the appropriate inventory bucket for the LH leg, and then auto-price. It's just, you probably can't do it through the UI (but try multi-city search).
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 13, 2023 at 4:37 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts by same member
Dec 13, 2023, 4:25 pm
#160
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
Excellent advice. Only problem is that I get fewer competent UA agents these days. They want to help, but clearly do not have the training or experience to deal with these situations. The idea about using multi-city search is a good one that I will keep in mind for the future.
To be clear about multi-city search, what I'm suggesting is to select the W fare for the UA-operated segment, and then just pick the lowest available fare for the other segment, and hope that UA has managed to find a combination that LH actually likes. There's no guarantee this works, but it's worth trying.
Your other option, should this situation arise again, would be to find a travel agent. I know there are a couple reading this forum and I suspect they would be able to manage this. The trick is to read and understand the fare rules, including the inventory delegation rules. I wouldn't expect most UA reservations agents to be able to do this, but an experienced TA is another matter.
Dec 13, 2023, 5:31 pm
#161
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
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To be clear about multi-city search, what I'm suggesting is to select the W fare for the UA-operated segment, and then just pick the lowest available fare for the other segment, and hope that UA has managed to find a combination that LH actually likes. There's no guarantee this works, but it's worth trying.
Dec 13, 2023, 6:46 pm
#162
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
In this case, even though UA and LH have harmonized their TATL fare codes, I bet LH has done something silly like delegate the W fare to S when available or something like that, and I bet the computer is either refusing to ticket at that point, or, perhaps more likely, United.com inserted a fare break -- which would account for the price difference OP is seeing -- and then LH refused to ticket due to the fare break. (LH is extremely picky about what it allows to ticket).
Feb 16, 2024, 9:47 am
#163
Join Date: May 2015
Location: DFW
Posts: 112
Premium Plus: Accessing R fare
Looking at two flights (880 and 5) IAH-LHR on 6/24. Both have identical prices across all cabins. However, the former shows R0 and the latter shows R1. Why can't I access the R space? Both quote the A fare, even if I put R as a fare in advanced search?
Feb 16, 2024, 9:48 am
#164
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
Because there is no R fare filed that is applicable to your request.