Originally Posted by 13901
(Post 33825614)
At which point are we allowed to employ the Gallic shoulder shrug and "tant pis" at their fate?
… Frankly, I don't feel sorry about him. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I don’t hold all these people responsible - but I certainly hold the influencers and commentators who reinforce their doubts and spread disinformation responsible. In my view, they have blood on their hands. Edit to add: One other aspect of this mess is that older people (and those with certain underlying conditions or on some medical treatments) have less immune response than younger people even if they have been vaccinated/boosted. To say nothing of the small proportion who cannot have the vaccine for a reason like allergies. They will bear the brunt of the selfishness of others, through no fault of their own. |
Originally Posted by slicktony
(Post 33825438)
*waves*
Honestly, first the ban on flying to Germany, then the bloody Ashes, and now this. Someone upstairs seems really determined to keep harshing my mellow. |
Quite frankly, I have to say that some of the discourse on here as well as on the media and the political discourse infuriates me, and I say this as somebody who did all they could to get their first two doses as quickly as possible and had the booster this past Thursday.
The problem isn't a minority of people who didn't get vaccinated. In fact, the uptake in the UK has exceeded even the best expectations that were made in late 2020. People have been incredibly receptive and eager to uncover their shoulders for the shots. There would've always been a minority who would not get the vaccines, whether because they like conspiracy theories, or are scared, or are marginalized (and yes, wealth and social status are a big determinant of whether you get vaccinated), or in any way fall through the cracks. The problem imho is that 1. Decades of bad policies and politics, incompetent management, lack of funding, and inadequate recruitment and retention of staff have left the healthcare system unable to manage an increase in pressure as a pandemic would expectedly bring: Why does nobody seem to be angry at the fact that from ~300k NHS beds in 1987 we are now at ~140k, with a population that's increased and gotten older, more obese, etc.? The system isn't fit for purpose. A lockdown now or later will not solve the problem, and the NHS will collapse anyway. 2. In the case of low vaccine uptake in certain groups, divisive politics, name-calling from all corners of the political discourse, social marginalization, a sense of being ignored and left behind, increasing inequities and inequalities, broken promises have all fueled distrust. Many people simply don't trust politicians/the intellectual class/the élites/whatever you want to call them any more. They now (rightfully imho) ask, "They told us vaccines where the way out--and we're back at it! They can f**k off, I won't comply. Why should I get vaccinated?" All this to say, that blaming the "no-vaxxers" is a straw man and a deflection from the real root of the problem: The social contract is broken or at least severely damaged, and blaming all of our problems on those who refuse to get vaccinated 1. won't solve anything and 2. will increase social division and all our problems further. And a lockdown won't help either. |
"And a lockdown won't help either."
And will be largely ignored. I know I will. |
Originally Posted by Silver Fox
(Post 33825727)
"And a lockdown won't help either."
And will be largely ignored. I know I will. |
Originally Posted by Dan1113
(Post 33825734)
I mean, if things are closed, you can't really ignore that. They're closed.
|
Originally Posted by Dan1113
(Post 33825734)
I mean, if things are closed, you can't really ignore that. They're closed.
Clearly I was referring to restrictions such as visiting other households, etc., etc.. |
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825740)
Agreed, but there'll definitely be more house parties in Jan 2022 than in Jan 2021. Or PTs giving classes in their homes when gyms are shut. Or "closed" restaurants that have the back door open.
My street had a vigilance who spent most of lockdown staring out the window to catch folk out haha. |
Originally Posted by Dan1113
(Post 33825742)
At least here, I know of plenty of people who had police visits from neighbours who heard noises of parties.
My street had a vigilance who spent most of lockdown staring out the window to catch folk out haha. |
i wish they would introduce some kind of crimestoppers reward system where you could grass people up, £500 for everyone you report - would help pay for a few of my trips :)
|
Originally Posted by KARFA
(Post 33825757)
i wish they would introduce some kind of crimestoppers reward system where you could grass people up, £500 for everyone you report - would help pay for a few of my trips :)
|
Originally Posted by Silver Fox
(Post 33825745)
No-one likes a grass. :)
|
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825714)
Quite frankly, I have to say that some of the discourse on here as well as on the media and the political discourse infuriates me, and I say this as somebody who did all they could to get their first two doses as quickly as possible and had the booster this past Thursday.
The problem isn't a minority of people who didn't get vaccinated. In fact, the uptake in the UK has exceeded even the best expectations that were made in late 2020. People have been incredibly receptive and eager to uncover their shoulders for the shots. There would've always been a minority who would not get the vaccines, whether because they like conspiracy theories, or are scared, or are marginalized (and yes, wealth and social status are a big determinant of whether you get vaccinated), or in any way fall through the cracks. The problem imho is that 1. Decades of bad policies and politics, incompetent management, lack of funding, and inadequate recruitment and retention of staff have left the healthcare system unable to manage an increase in pressure as a pandemic would expectedly bring: Why does nobody seem to be angry at the fact that from ~300k NHS beds in 1987 we are now at ~140k, with a population that's increased and gotten older, more obese, etc.? The system isn't fit for purpose. A lockdown now or later will not solve the problem, and the NHS will collapse anyway. 2. In the case of low vaccine uptake in certain groups, divisive politics, name-calling from all corners of the political discourse, social marginalization, a sense of being ignored and left behind, increasing inequities and inequalities, broken promises have all fueled distrust. Many people simply don't trust politicians/the intellectual class/the élites/whatever you want to call them any more. They now (rightfully imho) ask, "They told us vaccines where the way out--and we're back at it! They can f**k off, I won't comply. Why should I get vaccinated?" All this to say, that blaming the "no-vaxxers" is a straw man and a deflection from the real root of the problem: The social contract is broken or at least severely damaged, and blaming all of our problems on those who refuse to get vaccinated 1. won't solve anything and 2. will increase social division and all our problems further. And a lockdown won't help either. I see the sense of parts of your point 2, but there is a caveat I make. We all (well most) don’t have a lot of trust in politicians. But it’s a case of personal responsibility too. It’s OUR collective responsibility to be good citizens, and what is requires of us is to take a jab and some limited curbs to our personal freedoms like wearing a mask. Pointing at others - government, society, “the powers that be” - is IMHO an easy way out. At some point we need to be responsible for out actions. |
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825714)
People have been incredibly receptive and eager to uncover their shoulders for the shots. There would've always been a minority who would not get the vaccines, whether because they like conspiracy theories, or are scared, or are marginalized (and yes, wealth and social status are a big determinant of whether you get vaccinated), or in any way fall through the cracks.
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825714)
Decades of bad policies and politics, incompetent management, lack of funding, and inadequate recruitment and retention of staff have left the healthcare system unable to manage an increase in pressure as a pandemic would expectedly bring: Why does nobody seem to be angry at the fact that from ~300k NHS beds in 1987 we are now at ~140k, with a population that's increased and gotten older, more obese, etc.? The system isn't fit for purpose. A lockdown now or later will not solve the problem, and the NHS will collapse anyway.
Unfortunately, because health is an incredible political football, politicians like to fiddle with it in the hope of taking credit for improvements. Too often, that means imposing whichever particular political and economic ideology is in vogue at the time, regardless of whether it's actually going to do any good. Another issue is that healthcare is also intrinsically linked to social care (especially as people live longer, with more chronic conditions), and this certainly has suffered, being de-prioritised and under-funded for many decades. I'm afraid I don't agree that "A lockdown now or later will not solve the problem, and the NHS will collapse anyway" because it is the wrong premise: it mixes up short- and long-term issues. A lockdown absolutely can protect the system from being overwhelmed in the short-term. But it comes with all sorts of other societal costs too. No, of course it can't deal with long term/systemic issues. But I don't think anyone is arguing that it does - these are exacerbated by short term pressures but need their own solutions. Trying to do that in the middle of a pandemic would be, however, "a brave decision Prime Minister" to quote Sir Humphrey.
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825714)
In the case of low vaccine uptake in certain groups, divisive politics, name-calling from all corners of the political discourse, social marginalization, a sense of being ignored and left behind, increasing inequities and inequalities, broken promises have all fueled distrust. Many people simply don't trust politicians/the intellectual class/the élites/whatever you want to call them any more. They now (rightfully imho) ask, "They told us vaccines where the way out--and we're back at it! They can f**k off, I won't comply. Why should I get vaccinated?"
All this to say, that blaming the "no-vaxxers" is a straw man and a deflection from the real root of the problem: The social contract is broken or at least severely damaged, and blaming all of our problems on those who refuse to get vaccinated 1. won't solve anything and 2. will increase social division and all our problems further.
Originally Posted by tosaerba24
(Post 33825714)
And a lockdown won't help either.
Will people ignore the rules, in light of all the issues raised here? Quite possibly. But 1) many, and I suspect the majority, would still obey most of the rules most of the time 2) you'd have to go to a lot of house parties to spread it to the same extent that you would with unrestricted indoor winter mixing in workplaces, pubs, etc. So I think it would still "work", albeit maybe not as effectively as last time. |
Originally Posted by 13901
(Post 33825949)
I fully subscribe to your Point 1. The NHS has been broken for way too long. I don’t remember another Western country where a guy who’d been run over by a car had to lie on the wet tarmac for one hour, in West London, while we worried about him going into hypothermia just because it was winter and there were no ambulances.
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