WHY HAVE SUBGROUPS???????????????
 

Title shouting sez it all. Get a moderator to throw all the stuff out of here and into where it belongs.

edited to add london

Russian Visa

Bahamas

Paris

Wash DC

Headphones

LAX

Barzil

Yellowstone

UK car rental

Please note, I am not sweet willie, who has been very polite about the misposting.

[This message has been edited by slawecki (edited 05-05-2003).]

"If it's a travel topic worth talking about, it's likely in this forum. (non-frequent flyer program travel)"

slawecki - I am normally pretty mellow, but in this case...get off the high horse! Some folks actually have jobs, we work, we don't have time to read every darn thread on FT. When I want to post a general travel question, I am GOING to post it in Travelbuzz because I only have time to read a few forums and this is one I read. And per the quote above, this is an approprate place to post such a question. I know that I am not alone and others advice would be missed because they don't read the random forums either. So get over it. It is called Travelbuzz for a reason. Note the AC forum where it is OK to post about anything Canadian or the US forum where anything about CLT or PIT is welcome. I mean the moderators have to have a clue in order to balance your idea of where something should be posted vs where the post is actually going to get a response. Otherwise why post it at all? FT would be worthless without responses from those who know and those who care and most likeley they are not the folks who have time to surf every darn thread on FT and worry "did I psot that in the right place?". IMHO.

Sorry, auh20, but I'm with slawecki (and, for that matter SweetWillie) on this one.

If you're going to have the subgroups, then they should be used properly. Otherwise stuff gets doubled up. My understanding of a "travel topic" would be something like SARS, say - a broad topic affecting travel but not to do with points. How do I get from ORD to downtown Chicago is not a "travel topic" - it's a specific question about a location.

I'm glad you're so busy with work that you don't have time to read every topic on FT, auh20, but just imagine how much time you could save if instead of posting and waiting for replies you could search just one forum and find your answer instantly!


But surely you can remember to check for the answers to your important questions whichever forum you post them in?

But that's exactly the argument people used a year or so ago before it all got tidied up about MilesBuzz. And after a couple of weeks, everyone who was so busy they only ever looked at MilesBuzz started looking at TravelBuzz too. I think you can see where this is going...

No, I can't. Period. I stand by my comments.

Wingnut (and slawecki):

TravelBuzz was designed precisely for non-miles travel-related topics. Getting to downtown from ORD is no less specific than SARS. Besides, a helluva lot more FTers are likely to find the ORD-downtown info far, far more useful not to mention relevant than SARS, which they will likely never have to deal with.

Having been around here for a long time and looking at TravelBuzz nearly everyday, I rarely see mispostings. It's fine the way it is.

If you really have a grave disagreement about the way this board is being run, then please post to the TalkBoard forum or Only Randy Peterson to have your concerns addressed more directly. No offense, but merely kvetching here will only declare open season for more ill-will in subsequent posts.

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 05-06-2003).]

Are you somehow suggesting that only unemployed bums with too much time on their hands should worry about posting in the right forum? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/confused.gif Just because your time is limited doesn't justify posting wherever is convenient for you. (imho)

Yeah, anarchy!!!

Who needs those frikkin moderators anyway! We'll post where we want! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

As far as I am concerned, the Travelbuzz section works pretty well. Any obviously misplaced posts are moved, but the majority stay, even if they could perhaps be placed elsewhere. This is the perfect scenario for me, as I do not wish to have to look through 100 sections to find things that may be relevant or interesting to me http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

If all the perfectly "on-topic" posts were being moved out of the first page in hours due to the mass of poorly placed posts then I would see a cause for concern. Since that isn't happening I'm not sure anyone needs to get too upset. Things could be a lot worse!

I agree with ALL of you.

There should be no subgroups.

Threads posted in TravelBuzz are likely to garner answers from more people, but also to have a shorter lifespan: -> good for a quick answer to a simple question

Threads posted in a specific forum usually get more detailed answers, many from experienced FT'ers on weekends, and are more often bumped up at a later date: -> good for trip-planning and the FT 'databank'


The standard of moderation in TravelBuzz is certainly not the same as in MileBuzz, and does not need to be. However, gently weaning some of the newer posters to the specific forums would not hurt either.

The problem is that some of the smaller forums have not reached critical mass, and will not unless jump-started (by an influx of redirected posts).

Having subgroups is useful, but having such a large number of subgroups is not useful. There are so many subgroups here that most people don't look at all of them. As a result, posting a question somewhere other than Travelbuzz gets a very limited audience.

OK, should the following thread: ExCeL Center London - Hotel options be in TravelBuzz or London? And if the answer is TravelBuzz, then why is there a London forum? (Incidentally, now I've seen this thread I've replied to it - it might be worth posting again in the London forum as replies there are quick and knowledgeable).

If all these things should be in TravelBuzz, then that's absolutely fine but as Kokonutz says, all the other fora should be deleted!

I think there is a very wide range of acceptable TravelBuzz! topics. Non-miles travel questions are welcome here.

The value of TravelBuzz! is that lots of people read and respond here.

TravelBuzz! is valuable because of the "network effect." That means that the more people read a particular forum, the higher the value of that forum.

If I moved every post that had a more specific forum, there would be very few threads on TravelBuzz!, people wouldn't see those threads at all, and the value to FlyerTalkers would be severely diminished.

Now, if TravelBuzz! gets too big and too busy, then it makes sense to start having people post to the other groups, e.g. London, airports, etc.

But until then, it is most useful to post where people read and respond -- which is here.

This is my personal philosophy and what I will follow unless Randy tells me otherwise.

I must be getting very old. I am having a bit of trouble differentiating between Travelbuzz and Omni lately.

Travelbuzz topic: why people fart on planes.

Omni topic: why people fart at home or at work.

got it? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif

Either post in the appropriate forum or get rid of all the subcategories, one or the other.

See related discussions here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000447.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000713.html

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 05-06-2003).]

THAT is a catch-22 statement IMO.

At what point is critical mass? when the critical mass does occur, many posters have been trained to ignore the subgroups and post in Travelbuzz.

For the record, I don't care one way or another, but would like to see FT make it clear if Travelbuzz is to be a catch-all for all non-point/mile topics or not.

I personally believe that Travelbuzz will eventually have some of the same issues that Omni has, namely many FT'ers do not dig for all new posts in Omni because it is TOO busy/too many topics hence some get lost.

While Travelbuzz may not be that way now, I could see it becoming that way in the future if FT grows with new members the way I would like to see grow.

TravelBuzz! has been pretty steady for the last few months. New threads haven't been increasing dramatically. The tone is very civil. Very few misposts, virtually no flaming. Lots of great information.

Go TravelBuzz!

"Very few misposts.."

Some disagree with this.

Richard, thank you for posting to this thead and for explaining your thoughts. Thank you too for giving your time to moderate. It really is appreciated.

I think the problem is that the post level is between the two points you describe. If everyone posted their location-specific posts in TravelBuzz then it would be too busy.

At the moment, some post to Buzz and some post to the individual fora. Which is why Buzz seems manageable. The problem, surely, is duplication. The same information could be contained in one of 2 places (or even 3 or 4 - should a question about London, say, be in "Buzz", "London", "UK & Ireland" or even "Europe"? Where should someone search?

A logical extension of the position that anything goes in Buzz would be to delete all the individual fora. Then I think Buzz would become too busy and unwieldy. However, I also think that if a "stricter" moderation were to be used, then the categories should be rethought first.

Just my tuppence...

[This message has been edited by Wingnut (edited 05-07-2003).]

Sorry, but that is a lame excuse. If you really don't have the time, then wouldn't it make more sense to have all of the travel threads posted in their correct/specific forums? So that if you are interested in, for example, travel to the Caribbean, you go straight to that forum rather than wade through a bunch of other posts in TravelBuzz? Similarly, I don't have time to read through every forum either, and a more eficiently managed/segregated board would save me time. Also, I believe that FT Travel is a much more valuable resource if topics are properly categorized and archived.

Actually, it is a valuable resource if people go there and participate. If things are too fragmented, nobody will go to those fragmented places and nobody will get value out of their (few) posts.

The value of FlyerTalk Travel is highest as more people participate. The price you pay is that you may have to ignore threads you are not interested in.

It is worth it though. Any question you have about travel (non miles related) -- ask and ye shall have an incredibly informed answer. What value!!

Richard, it seems as if you truly believe what you are stating (obviously a good thing http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif ).

Why then did Flyertalk switch to the new style and add all the subgroups they did?

The only conclusion I can come to is that it is expected that Flyertalk will grow and as it grows one forum such as Travelbuzz will not be enough, thus the creation of the subgroups below for the express purpose of placing geographic specific information/posts into those groups.

A New FT Travel: The chexfan Plan http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

FlyerTalk is a much more valuable resource if topics are properly categorized and archived. I hope I choose the proper place for my contribution, as I widen slaweckis opener to Why is FlyerTalk divided into Miles, Travel, Airport, Dining & Archives in the first and in subgroups in the second place?

As I am moderate the LH & the *A board on FlyerTalk Miles, once in a while I will be confronted to find a new home for misplaced threads. I relocated

Overnighting in FRA - recommendations?
MIA food and drug import question
Security concerns with cargo on pay flights from FRA?

to TravelBuzz, knowing that this is not correct place. The reason why I choose this kind of overview travel related place and not the proper regional forum was this: I was pretty sure, that on this busy board, the poster gets a profound answer in a reasonable amount of time.

Moving threads is not popular among posters; I completely agree, that posts should be in the right place, but to move a thread to a place with very low traffic cannot be the best choice. Let me show you three current threads from the LH board; they are not miles, but travel related, so definitely in the wrong place. But where should be the new home?

On arrival at FRA - how to rendezvous?: I should have moved it to FlyerTalk Airport – subforum Frankfurt, but …
Car rental prices in HAM...suddenly quite pricey: There is a fellow flyertalker who likes to rent a cheap car next weekend …
FRA - how to make the best of it?: I should have moved it to FlyerTalk Travel – subforum Europe (Coiaflyer is waiting for an answer)

I did not move these threads which is a bad decision, but as long as I do not know where the tread is welcome, I do not change anything.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/thumbsup.gif for Patron. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Agreed, if this is not the case why have any forums, just one massive one? I feel it would be overwhelming, way too much information.

That is the key for me, "place with a very low traffic count". Why does the forum have low traffic count?

I believe that there has not been proactive education of the subgroups and moving of posts by FT staff, hence the complacency w/posting wherever one feels they wish to post.

Chexfan above has some neat ideas on condensing the Travel forum into more macro groups so the post count would be much higher, response rate much higher, etc.

The FT staff arranged the new Travel Forum to have subgroups, obviously done for a reason. A guess of mine would be that it is expected that FT’ers will use the subgroups.

Richard, I understand completely what you're saying about posts in busy places, but isn't this exactly the argument which took place 6 months or so ago when the decision was made to "enforce" through the moving of threads the distinction between MilesBuzz & TravelBuzz? I'm sure there were similar threads to this at the time, and everyone whinged about it for a bit, but in the end I think most would agree it was the right thing to do and FT is a better place as a result. I can't really see the distinction between that issue then and this one now.

Wingnut, the distinction is this: splitting a group into two is one thing. Splitting it into 50 is quite another. The 50 will have very low traffic and everyone loses.

Fair point. But we still haven't resolved the duplication problem. Does this mean that you (and I mean as an individual rather than a moderator, as I realise it's not your call) would support getting rid of all the geo-specific fora?

IMO there is a well designed FT overview page and a short description of FTs main five boards. There are guidelines & rules, tips for (new) users (eg how to use the search function), FAQs etc… And there are threads on FT miles dealing with airports and travel. Maybe this was one reason that our host Randy introduced moderation. I hope, that every moderator act out of these guidelines…
This would be the logical reason. IMO it is not only a question of subgroups but also for main boards!
I agree with you, that this group exist. I also spot another one: People who like to get a profound answer in a reasonable amount of time.
But see your previous quotation: If there is nobody who introduce the new structure and nobody to relocated off-topic posts, I see little change.

Any new structure clearly comes from the FT top brass, no one else.

IMO, relocation of off-topics is one of the moderator's roles.

The way I'm reading the moderation of Travelbuzz is such:

Richard the moderator has chosen not to relocate mis-posts in Travelbuzz due to the fact that the posts might get put in low viewed/responded to forums which will then not get good response time/feedback.

I have nothing against Richard, I'm just pointing out that his actions perpetuate the lack of viewing/responding/posting in the subgroups.

Essentially Richard is choosing how the Flyertalk Travel Board operates by choosing not to move posts to the subgroups that were clearly created by FT staff.

If the FT brass has instructed Richard to act as he is doing so, fine. But then we come full circle to the original question.

If the subgroups are not to be used, why have them?

From FT Moderator Guidelines:
WHY DO WE HAVE MODERATORS?
FlyerTalk has moderators because it’s an enormous community. … Like a small city, FlyerTalk needs some help to keep things running smoothly.
Moderators serve 3 primary roles. They enforce the rules, provide first-level dispute resolution, and guide posters towards good behaviour. Enforcing the rules is the obvious task, and you will be called upon to take real action, by closing threads, moving them, and even removing them altogether. …
Even I prefer to run a tight ship, and keep the deck clear so we don't get washed overboard (@transpac) I would not move threads from TravelBuzz! to relevant subgroups. IMO one moderator cannot enforce the rules (please count the off-topic posts on the first page), and honestly speaking, right now I do not see enough support from the authorities. Please consider the reactions if richard goes this straight way…

I have been around here about three years and remember when pretty well EVERYTHING went into "The Buzz".

Then that was split to Miles Buzz and Travel Buzz, and I still see a ton of locked threads every time I look at Miles Buzz, so even all this time not everyone "gets it". http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Just my personal view ... but I do not believe I have ever looked at or posted-in any of the sub forums here on the travel board, other than a few that I was advised about etc, but that might be 10 posts total.

In short, I agree with all those who say 'why have all the sub Forums'.

I have been around here about three years and remember when pretty well EVERYTHING went into "The Buzz".

Then that was split to Miles Buzz and Travel Buzz, and I still see a ton of locked threads every time I look at Miles Buzz, so even all this time not everyone "gets it". http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Just my personal view ... but I do not believe I have ever looked at or posted-in any of the sub forums here on the travel board, other than a few that I was advised about etc, but that might be 10 posts total.

In short, I agree with all those who say 'why have all the sub Forums'.



------------------

~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

DIRECTION from the Flyertalk Authority on subgroups is what I hope to see.

Bump.

Re-bump.

Bumpity-bump-bump.