Is this cabotage?

Old Apr 7, 19, 7:20 am
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Yes. Few people find that these schemes are cheaper and in the rare instances they are, you take on 100% of the risk of a no show at YYZ.
Originally Posted by joejones View Post
You'd also have to go through immigration twice at YYZ (once to enter Canada, then again for US preclearance), so you'd need to pad that connection a lot.
I fly Delta out of Toronto three or four times per year because long-haul flights (Hawaii or Europe) are much cheaper out of YYZ than my home airport of Detroit. Half the time I'm flying back to Detroit.

Originally Posted by 123run View Post
Another cabotage question: I’m looking at flying to Saipan on DL 171 MSP-ICN, overnight ICN and then continue the next morning on a separate ticket via JeJu Air to Saipan. Will this be a problem with the Jeju flight? I think I should be ok since I’m arriving into ICN on Delta equipment but not sure about the separate ticket/overnighting/Jeju Air. The return is also Jeju Air to ICN but then I head to Japan for a few days before returning stateside on DL. There is an earlier flight to Saipan but it arrives 0340 and I’d rather not spend 2 nights in a row sleeping on a plane.
I’ve checked with Delta and they “think” I should be ok, but then I had to explain the cabotage issue to them since they were unaware. I also contacted Jeju Air via chat which wasn’t much help either. Both airlines said I should contact immigration, which I also did and they told me to talk to the airlines! Can someone please help me out of the circular loop I’m stuck in?
This is fine. What you can't do, however, is fly Korean from Saipan to ICN and then Korean again from ICN to say Atlanta. This has become a bigger issue in Guam and Saipan since Delta used to fly intra-Asia from Tokyo–Narita to Guam, Saipan and Palau.

Don't forget. For those wishing to avoid ICN, you can fly Delta to Manila (via NRT) and then fly Philippine Airlines, United or another carrier to GUM.
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Old Apr 10, 19, 6:27 am
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Would it be legal to buy a ticket through Air Canada for say Chicago or Detroit to Toronto on Air Canada and then Toronto to somewhere in the United States on United?
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Old Apr 10, 19, 8:37 am
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
Would it be legal to buy a ticket through Air Canada for say Chicago or Detroit to Toronto on Air Canada and then Toronto to somewhere in the United States on United?
Yes.

Cabotage, at least as US law and the DOT rules define it, is ticketing on a non-US carrier between two points in the US. Eg. ORD-YYZ-SFO on AC. All other combinations are not cabotage, e.g. UA-UA, UA-AC, or AC-UA.
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Old Apr 10, 19, 9:03 am
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Cabotage rules apply to selling tickets, though, not to the person actually flying. They cant prevent you from flying from ICN to Guam, correct?
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Old Apr 10, 19, 9:07 am
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Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
Cabotage rules apply to selling tickets, though, not to the person actually flying. They cant prevent you from flying from ICN to Guam, correct?
You cannot get arrested, if that's what you mean.

I'm not even sure cabotage would survive a legal challenge as while Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa are U.S. territories, they are in some respects not part of the United States. Only some parts of federal law and the U.S. Constitution apply. Some of the territories control their own customs or immigration. All or most compete on their own internationally in sporting events, including the Olympics. None have U.S. citizenship by birth, but rather citizenship by law. (In the case of American Samoa, nobody who is American Samoan and born there is an American citizen.)

It's a very complicated subject matter. Basically, when the feds say they're part of the United States they are but when the feds say they aren't then they aren't.

Of course, it would require a massive amount of litigation.
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Old Apr 12, 19, 12:40 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider View Post
I'm not even sure cabotage would survive a legal challenge as while Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa are U.S. territories, they are in some respects not part of the United States.
For purposes of the cabotage statute, the "United States" is defined to include territories and possessions - see 49 U.S.C. § 40102(a)(26). So I don't think there is much room for legal argument here. If there were, you'd better believe that KE and OZ's lawyers would have pursued it.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 5:13 pm
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Originally Posted by joejones View Post
It's basically a global thing. The only place worldwide where you see large-scale passenger cabotage is among the EU countries -- EU carriers are allowed to operate domestic routes in other EU countries thanks to the common market. There are a few other country pairs where it's technically allowed but not really utilized, such as between Australia and New Zealand.
any NZ airline can fly domestically in Australia & sell domestic only tickets & vice versa. It's called SAM (single aviation market).

In fact, it's much easier for a NZ airline to fly domestically in Australia than an Australian airline. Apparently due to fact that NZ airlines fly by NZCAA rules, whereas Australian airlines fly by CASA(Australia) rules, which are much more demanding.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 5:18 pm
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Originally Posted by LondonElite View Post
Your 12 hours in South Korea doesn’t really allow much exploring. Maybe four/five hours in Seoul total.
Not true at all. I left the airport with a 6 hour layover. You have a good day in Seoul, 8 hours at least. When I was there the train didn't go all the way through to Seoul (had to change at GMP) but now it does.

Originally Posted by OZFLYER86 View Post
any NZ airline can fly domestically in Australia & sell domestic only tickets & vice versa. It's called SAM (single aviation market).

In fact, it's much easier for a NZ airline to fly domestically in Australia than an Australian airline. Apparently due to fact that NZ airlines fly by NZCAA rules, whereas Australian airlines fly by CASA(Australia) rules, which are much more demanding.
BA flies within South Africa.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 11:57 am
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
BA flies within South Africa.
Technically that's Comair, a South African airline, not British Airways. Comair just happens to have a marketing agreement under which it uses the BA livery, loyalty program, flight numbers and more.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 12:21 pm
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Cabotage is simply a general description of a set of local laws which regulate the conduct. Thus, US law on the issue is not South Africa and so on.

While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.

For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).

Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 1:27 pm
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So then hypothetically speaking, say I was supposed to fly from JFK to SFO on United. For whatever reason, they had to accommodate me. United codeshares with Air Canada. Could (again not that there would be much reason to) rebook me on a flight operated by Air Canada via Toronto, but both segments having a United flight number?

And if so, could say AA, who has a codeshare with Qantas, rebook someone from LAX to JFK on the QF flight?
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Old Apr 18, 19, 2:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Cabotage is simply a general description of a set of local laws which regulate the conduct. Thus, US law on the issue is not South Africa and so on.

While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.

For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).

Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
Of course US law isn't an issue in South Africa. But people were saying it is the rule that foreign carriers aren't allowed to operate domestic flights. Which is not true.
I don't know what you meant by "cabotage" but it isn't a US thing. Cabotage isn't only applicable in the US.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 2:50 pm
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Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Technically that's Comair, a South African airline, not British Airways. Comair just happens to have a marketing agreement under which it uses the BA livery, loyalty program, flight numbers and more.
Hmm, like United Express, Delta Connection? Or more like Republic Air?
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Old Apr 19, 19, 3:15 pm
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
Hmm, like United Express, Delta Connection? Or more like Republic Air?
Which is why the US and South Africa are apples and oranges. Each may have chosen to enact a different provision which it refers to generally as "cabotage" but that does not make the two statutes the same.

The bottom line is that this thread asks a question about US-US ticketing on a Canadian carrier. That violates both Title 49 and the DOT rules under the statute.
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Old Apr 20, 19, 1:13 am
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
Hmm, like United Express, Delta Connection? Or more like Republic Air?
ComAir is entirely unrelated to BA beyond the marketing agreement for BA brand in Southern Africa. They also operate flights under their own brand "kulula.com", not exclusively under the BA brand.
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