Is this cabotage?
Apr 7, 2019 | 7:20 am
#31
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Another cabotage question: I’m looking at flying to Saipan on DL 171 MSP-ICN, overnight ICN and then continue the next morning on a separate ticket via JeJu Air to Saipan. Will this be a problem with the Jeju flight? I think I should be ok since I’m arriving into ICN on Delta equipment but not sure about the separate ticket/overnighting/Jeju Air. The return is also Jeju Air to ICN but then I head to Japan for a few days before returning stateside on DL. There is an earlier flight to Saipan but it arrives 0340 and I’d rather not spend 2 nights in a row sleeping on a plane.
I’ve checked with Delta and they “think” I should be ok, but then I had to explain the cabotage issue to them since they were unaware. I also contacted Jeju Air via chat which wasn’t much help either. Both airlines said I should contact immigration, which I also did and they told me to talk to the airlines! Can someone please help me out of the circular loop I’m stuck in?
I’ve checked with Delta and they “think” I should be ok, but then I had to explain the cabotage issue to them since they were unaware. I also contacted Jeju Air via chat which wasn’t much help either. Both airlines said I should contact immigration, which I also did and they told me to talk to the airlines! Can someone please help me out of the circular loop I’m stuck in?
Don't forget. For those wishing to avoid ICN, you can fly Delta to Manila (via NRT) and then fly Philippine Airlines, United or another carrier to GUM.
Apr 10, 2019 | 6:27 am
#32
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Would it be legal to buy a ticket through Air Canada for say Chicago or Detroit to Toronto on Air Canada and then Toronto to somewhere in the United States on United?
Apr 10, 2019 | 8:37 am
#33
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Cabotage, at least as US law and the DOT rules define it, is ticketing on a non-US carrier between two points in the US. Eg. ORD-YYZ-SFO on AC. All other combinations are not cabotage, e.g. UA-UA, UA-AC, or AC-UA.
Apr 10, 2019 | 9:07 am
#35
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I'm not even sure cabotage would survive a legal challenge as while Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa are U.S. territories, they are in some respects not part of the United States. Only some parts of federal law and the U.S. Constitution apply. Some of the territories control their own customs or immigration. All or most compete on their own internationally in sporting events, including the Olympics. None have U.S. citizenship by birth, but rather citizenship by law. (In the case of American Samoa, nobody who is American Samoan and born there is an American citizen.)
It's a very complicated subject matter. Basically, when the feds say they're part of the United States they are but when the feds say they aren't then they aren't.
Of course, it would require a massive amount of litigation.
Apr 12, 2019 | 12:40 pm
#36
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For purposes of the cabotage statute, the "United States" is defined to include territories and possessions - see 49 U.S.C. 40102(a)(26). So I don't think there is much room for legal argument here. If there were, you'd better believe that KE and OZ's lawyers would have pursued it.
Apr 17, 2019 | 5:13 pm
#37
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It's basically a global thing. The only place worldwide where you see large-scale passenger cabotage is among the EU countries -- EU carriers are allowed to operate domestic routes in other EU countries thanks to the common market. There are a few other country pairs where it's technically allowed but not really utilized, such as between Australia and New Zealand.
In fact, it's much easier for a NZ airline to fly domestically in Australia than an Australian airline. Apparently due to fact that NZ airlines fly by NZCAA rules, whereas Australian airlines fly by CASA(Australia) rules, which are much more demanding.
Apr 17, 2019 | 5:18 pm
#38
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any NZ airline can fly domestically in Australia & sell domestic only tickets & vice versa. It's called SAM (single aviation market).
In fact, it's much easier for a NZ airline to fly domestically in Australia than an Australian airline. Apparently due to fact that NZ airlines fly by NZCAA rules, whereas Australian airlines fly by CASA(Australia) rules, which are much more demanding.
In fact, it's much easier for a NZ airline to fly domestically in Australia than an Australian airline. Apparently due to fact that NZ airlines fly by NZCAA rules, whereas Australian airlines fly by CASA(Australia) rules, which are much more demanding.
Apr 18, 2019 | 11:57 am
#39
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Apr 18, 2019 | 12:21 pm
#40
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Cabotage is simply a general description of a set of local laws which regulate the conduct. Thus, US law on the issue is not South Africa and so on.
While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.
For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).
Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.
For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).
Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
Apr 18, 2019 | 1:27 pm
#41
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So then hypothetically speaking, say I was supposed to fly from JFK to SFO on United. For whatever reason, they had to accommodate me. United codeshares with Air Canada. Could (again not that there would be much reason to) rebook me on a flight operated by Air Canada via Toronto, but both segments having a United flight number?
And if so, could say AA, who has a codeshare with Qantas, rebook someone from LAX to JFK on the QF flight?
And if so, could say AA, who has a codeshare with Qantas, rebook someone from LAX to JFK on the QF flight?
Apr 18, 2019 | 2:49 pm
#42
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Cabotage is simply a general description of a set of local laws which regulate the conduct. Thus, US law on the issue is not South Africa and so on.
While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.
For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).
Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
While it is a violation for the carrier to engage in cabotage, the sole remedy in the case of the US is for the carrier to deny boarding and refund the ticket if one manages to slip through. For US purposes, the rules under Title 49 are enforced by DOT, but on a day-to-day basis, monitored by CBP.
For what it is worth, the US territories are all part of the US for purposes of cabotage (and most things).
Finally, worth noting that the Canadians also have a provision. So, one cannot fly on a US carrier YYZ-ORD-YVR.
I don't know what you meant by "cabotage" but it isn't a US thing. Cabotage isn't only applicable in the US.
Apr 18, 2019 | 2:50 pm
#43
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Apr 19, 2019 | 3:15 pm
#44
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Which is why the US and South Africa are apples and oranges. Each may have chosen to enact a different provision which it refers to generally as "cabotage" but that does not make the two statutes the same.
The bottom line is that this thread asks a question about US-US ticketing on a Canadian carrier. That violates both Title 49 and the DOT rules under the statute.
The bottom line is that this thread asks a question about US-US ticketing on a Canadian carrier. That violates both Title 49 and the DOT rules under the statute.
Apr 20, 2019 | 1:13 am
#45
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