Is this cabotage?

Old Apr 23, 19, 8:52 pm
  #46  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: HKG
Programs: Aeroflot Bonus (silver)
Posts: 370
Originally Posted by joejones View Post
It's basically a global thing. The only place worldwide where you see large-scale passenger cabotage is among the EU countries -- EU carriers are allowed to operate domestic routes in other EU countries thanks to the common market. There are a few other country pairs where it's technically allowed but not really utilized, such as between Australia and New Zealand.
Does this law really exist in EU? It is possible to buy tickets on Aeroflot connecting in SVO between two EU destinations, e.g. PRG - TLL with a single SU fare covering the whole trip, i.e. an intra-EU trip served by a non-EU airline by a connection outside the EU.
miklcct is offline  
Old Apr 23, 19, 11:09 pm
  #47  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,030
Just for the hell of it - I tried booking SFO-YYZ-LGA on AC on the Orbitz website. Two hours on ground in YYZ.

I got to the point where it wanted a credit card and stopped.

If I had booked, at what point would they have caught up with me?
BigFlyer is offline  
Old Apr 24, 19, 8:52 am
  #48  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by miklcct View Post
Does this law really exist in EU? It is possible to buy tickets on Aeroflot connecting in SVO between two EU destinations, e.g. PRG - TLL with a single SU fare covering the whole trip, i.e. an intra-EU trip served by a non-EU airline by a connection outside the EU.
The EU is not a country so flights between different EU countries are not considered cabotage. The type of cabotage I'm talking about is, for example, LH flying within Italy and FR flying within the UK.
joejones is offline  
Old Apr 24, 19, 9:22 am
  #49  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 42,857
If you are booking on one of the third-party sites, you might well have been issued separate tickets. But, the bottom line answer is that you might not have been caught up short until either AC or CBP (which handles on-the-ground enforcement for DOT) picked this up via algorithm.
Often1 is online now  
Old Apr 24, 19, 1:38 pm
  #50  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 7,419
Cabotage applied until the 1997 handback to London - Hong Kong. It was not allowed to through ticket via Amsterdam on KLM, Thai via Bangkok, or similar.

The EU rules are complex. EU carriers can operate between any two EU points without restriction, Easyjet (UK) and Ryanair (Ireland) have done so extensively outside their home countries, including internal flights within one country, such as Easyjet's extensive network within France. But overseas carriers can still operate flights within the EU if they wish, such as Ethiopian operating Brussels-Vienna-Addis Ababa, selling seats on the Brussels to Vienna sector.
WHBM is offline  
Old Apr 24, 19, 1:53 pm
  #51  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
But overseas carriers can still operate flights within the EU if they wish, such as Ethiopian operating Brussels-Vienna-Addis Ababa, selling seats on the Brussels to Vienna sector.
Again, flights between different EU countries are not considered cabotage to begin with. That's fifth-freedom traffic, which is more commonly allowed worldwide.

Ethiopian would not be able to sell seats on, say, Paris-Nice or Rome-Milan (domestic flights within EU countries).
joejones is offline  
Old Apr 25, 19, 6:45 am
  #52  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New England
Programs: AA Platinum Pro
Posts: 4,222
Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
If you are booking on one of the third-party sites, you might well have been issued separate tickets. But, the bottom line answer is that you might not have been caught up short until either AC or CBP (which handles on-the-ground enforcement for DOT) picked this up via algorithm.
Again, my question is: Is it not allowed to fly from one country to another then back to the first country, or that an airline is not allowed to sell tickets from one country to another and then back to the first?
Cloudship is offline  
Old Apr 25, 19, 8:12 am
  #53  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
Again, my question is: Is it not allowed to fly from one country to another then back to the first country, or that an airline is not allowed to sell tickets from one country to another and then back to the first?
Under US law, an operator of a foreign aircraft violates cabotage when they "take on for compensation, at a place in the United States, passengers or cargo destined for another place in the United States." So you don't break the law as a passenger by flying; you break the law as an airline by taking the passenger on your plane.
joejones is offline  
Old May 20, 19, 1:21 am
  #54  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: HKG
Programs: Aeroflot Bonus (silver)
Posts: 370
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Cabotage applied until the 1997 handback to London - Hong Kong. It was not allowed to through ticket via Amsterdam on KLM, Thai via Bangkok, or similar.

The EU rules are complex. EU carriers can operate between any two EU points without restriction, Easyjet (UK) and Ryanair (Ireland) have done so extensively outside their home countries, including internal flights within one country, such as Easyjet's extensive network within France. But overseas carriers can still operate flights within the EU if they wish, such as Ethiopian operating Brussels-Vienna-Addis Ababa, selling seats on the Brussels to Vienna sector.
So before 1997, apart from non-stop flights, what connection could people use to fly from Hong Kong to London?
miklcct is offline  
Old May 20, 19, 7:57 am
  #55  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by miklcct View Post
So before 1997, apart from non-stop flights, what connection could people use to fly from Hong Kong to London?
Any connection would have been legal as long as it was entirely on British carriers, e.g. fly BA to Paris and connect to CX there.
joejones is offline  
Old Sep 6, 19, 7:06 am
  #56  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Programs: UA Gold
Posts: 6
We are looking to book a return AMS-IAD-YYZ on UA in business then a separate reward ticket from YYZ to a city in the US on AC. Would there be any chance we would be denied boarding? Would it matter if IAD to to YYZ was on AC vs. UA metal if all on UA ticket stock? The reason we would want to book this is that it is pricing about $1700 less per ticket.

Thanks.
OHflies is offline  
Old Sep 6, 19, 8:06 am
  #57  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 44
Am I the only one that thought this thread would be about importing Kimchi from Korea and was disappointed to find out it was about carriage rules?
Mwenenzi likes this.
pmiranda is offline  
Old Sep 6, 19, 11:16 am
  #58  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Back home in the REAL Washington (SEA); still working occasionally in the other Washington (DCA area)
Programs: DL PM 1.3MM; AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 13,074
Originally Posted by pmiranda View Post
Am I the only one that thought this thread would be about importing Kimchi from Korea and was disappointed to find out it was about carriage rules?
so far, I think the answer is "Yes"
Mwenenzi likes this.
jrl767 is offline  
Old Sep 6, 19, 7:08 pm
  #59  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by OHflies View Post
We are looking to book a return AMS-IAD-YYZ on UA in business then a separate reward ticket from YYZ to a city in the US on AC. Would there be any chance we would be denied boarding? Would it matter if IAD to to YYZ was on AC vs. UA metal if all on UA ticket stock? The reason we would want to book this is that it is pricing about $1700 less per ticket.

Thanks.
as long as separate tix no issues, but you would have to claim bags & then probably exit airport at YYZ & go thru whole check in again & make sure you have plenty of time. I'd allow 4 hours between flights at YYZ.
OZFLYER86 is offline  
Old Sep 6, 19, 7:35 pm
  #60  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MEL CHC
Posts: 14,210
Originally Posted by OHflies View Post
We are looking to book a return AMS-IAD-YYZ on UA in business then a separate reward ticket from YYZ to a city in the US on AC. Would there be any chance we would be denied boarding? Would it matter if IAD to to YYZ was on AC vs. UA metal if all on UA ticket stock? The reason we would want to book this is that it is pricing about $1700 less per ticket..
Originally Posted by OZFLYER86 View Post
as long as separate tix no issues, but you would have to claim bags & then probably exit airport at YYZ & go thru whole check in again & make sure you have plenty of time. I'd allow 4 hours between flights at YYZ.
You would to do USA immigration/customs at IAD, as USA does not have the concept of airside transit.

Then at Pearson YYZ do Canadian immigration & customs with all your bags. Then check-in & USA pre-clearance at YYZ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...r_preclearance

Make sure all your Canadian & USA visa's are in order and plenty of time.
If any delays, the risk of the YYZ-XXX flight and/or YYZ-(IAD)-AMS return flight is all yours. No protection
Mwenenzi is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread