Held by security for hours / missed flights
Sep 6, 2015, 6:39 am
#16
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: CDG
Posts: 205
http://www.consulfrance-quebec.org/J...oyennete-Ai-je
France will even in some rare cases break the rule of not giving French visas on foreign passports of its own citizens.
As for Poland, the Polish law only states that you must use Polish travel documents when entering and exiting Poland. So for WAW-FRA-JFK, you are fine, as for WAW-GVA (you exit Poland and EU but stay within Schengen). For WAW-ORD you need a Polish passport, and for WAW-LHR you can make do with a Polish ID card.
Sep 6, 2015, 7:31 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8
From the perspective of what can be done about the past, the answer is nothing.
D8 did nothing wrong. OP booked and was checked in for their flight. It presumably left ontime (as OP missed it). Thus, no EC 261/2004 compensation of any kind, including duty of care (hotel + meals).
Having missed his D8 flight, OP is stuck with his ticket's fare rules. Those would generally provide for no value for a no show. However, it is unclear to me that D8 was not willing to rebook (but not for 2 days). Thus, OP purchased BA tickets for the next day.
Many countries treat dual nationals as solely their citizens for immigration purposes. The US for example, requires dual nationals to enter the US on their US passport (although there is no exit passport control).
OP's sole remedy is to make a claim with the Finnish government. I can only imagine just how far that will go.
D8 did nothing wrong. OP booked and was checked in for their flight. It presumably left ontime (as OP missed it). Thus, no EC 261/2004 compensation of any kind, including duty of care (hotel + meals).
Having missed his D8 flight, OP is stuck with his ticket's fare rules. Those would generally provide for no value for a no show. However, it is unclear to me that D8 was not willing to rebook (but not for 2 days). Thus, OP purchased BA tickets for the next day.
Many countries treat dual nationals as solely their citizens for immigration purposes. The US for example, requires dual nationals to enter the US on their US passport (although there is no exit passport control).
OP's sole remedy is to make a claim with the Finnish government. I can only imagine just how far that will go.
D8 would not rebook us at all. They offered no help after several calls and stated that their supervisors/managers could only be reached in writing.
I would have booked again with D8, however the next flights out were much more expensive, had a long layover and would not be for 2 days. Therefore it made more sense to book with BA instead.
This is what I have always understood. The only reason I have ever heard of anyone traveling with two passports was to "skip the line". With my wife only being a US Citizen, it made more sense for me to only travel with my US Passport.
Sep 6, 2015, 8:03 am
#19
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 436
uniquesituation:
In addition to Giggleswick's statements, please let me make some assumptions(I know
), observations and recommendations.
I assume you are relatively young (not over 40), did not fulfill Finnish National Service and did not serve in the U.S. Armed Forces. I make the further assumption that your taking on U.S. citizenship was not far removed from the 18-22 year old window, though this is less certain.
Also assuming the Rajavartiolaitos agent was not a moonlighting member of the Finnish National Radio Orchestra who does this for giggles, the agent may have seen you as a National Service dodger, and been poorly disposed towards you. As you still hold a Finnish passport and are considered a citizen, you were lucky to make it out without a more drawn out legal scenario. The Finns take citizen responsibilities as least as importantly as citizen rights.
In any case, given your prolonged journey to try to give up your Finnish citizenship, I also assume you did not graduate from a Finnish law school and that your Suomi is not at a level commensurate with such. I would recommend engaging a good Finnish immigration/citizenship attorney to expedite your KAN_3 and to check that your release hits the computer (we've definitely reached the time where merely carrying a document is insufficient if it doesn't appear in the database) if you ever intend to visit or transit Finland again.
Sorry about your travel difficulties.
In addition to Giggleswick's statements, please let me make some assumptions(I know
), observations and recommendations.I assume you are relatively young (not over 40), did not fulfill Finnish National Service and did not serve in the U.S. Armed Forces. I make the further assumption that your taking on U.S. citizenship was not far removed from the 18-22 year old window, though this is less certain.
Also assuming the Rajavartiolaitos agent was not a moonlighting member of the Finnish National Radio Orchestra who does this for giggles, the agent may have seen you as a National Service dodger, and been poorly disposed towards you. As you still hold a Finnish passport and are considered a citizen, you were lucky to make it out without a more drawn out legal scenario. The Finns take citizen responsibilities as least as importantly as citizen rights.
In any case, given your prolonged journey to try to give up your Finnish citizenship, I also assume you did not graduate from a Finnish law school and that your Suomi is not at a level commensurate with such. I would recommend engaging a good Finnish immigration/citizenship attorney to expedite your KAN_3 and to check that your release hits the computer (we've definitely reached the time where merely carrying a document is insufficient if it doesn't appear in the database) if you ever intend to visit or transit Finland again.
Sorry about your travel difficulties.
Sep 6, 2015, 8:15 am
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8
uniquesituation:
In addition to Giggleswick's statements, please let me make some assumptions(I know), observations and recommendations.
I assume you are relatively young (not over 40), did not fulfill Finnish National Service and did not serve in the U.S. Armed Forces. I make the further assumption that your taking on U.S. citizenship was not far removed from the 18-22 year old window, though this is less certain.
Also assuming the Rajavartiolaitos agent was not a moonlighting member of the Finnish National Radio Orchestra who does this for giggles, the agent may have seen you as a National Service dodger, and been poorly disposed towards you. As you still hold a Finnish passport and are considered a citizen, you were lucky to make it out without a more drawn out legal scenario. The Finns take citizen responsibilities as least as importantly as citizen rights.
In any case, given your prolonged journey to try to give up your Finnish citizenship, I also assume you did not graduate from a Finnish law school and that your Suomi is not at a level commensurate with such. I would recommend engaging a good Finnish immigration/citizenship attorney to expedite your KAN_3 and to check that your release hits the computer (we've definitely reached the time where merely carrying a document is insufficient if it doesn't appear in the database) if you ever intend to visit or transit Finland again.
Sorry about your travel difficulties.
In addition to Giggleswick's statements, please let me make some assumptions(I know
), observations and recommendations.I assume you are relatively young (not over 40), did not fulfill Finnish National Service and did not serve in the U.S. Armed Forces. I make the further assumption that your taking on U.S. citizenship was not far removed from the 18-22 year old window, though this is less certain.
Also assuming the Rajavartiolaitos agent was not a moonlighting member of the Finnish National Radio Orchestra who does this for giggles, the agent may have seen you as a National Service dodger, and been poorly disposed towards you. As you still hold a Finnish passport and are considered a citizen, you were lucky to make it out without a more drawn out legal scenario. The Finns take citizen responsibilities as least as importantly as citizen rights.
In any case, given your prolonged journey to try to give up your Finnish citizenship, I also assume you did not graduate from a Finnish law school and that your Suomi is not at a level commensurate with such. I would recommend engaging a good Finnish immigration/citizenship attorney to expedite your KAN_3 and to check that your release hits the computer (we've definitely reached the time where merely carrying a document is insufficient if it doesn't appear in the database) if you ever intend to visit or transit Finland again.
Sorry about your travel difficulties.
Correct: I have not served in the Finnish Army (and yes, this did come up with the Border Protection officer).
The following is a copy-and-paste from mil.fi:
Regarding the conscription of a Finnish citizen who al- so holds Norwegian, Swedish or Danish citizenship, that which is ordered in previously made agreements (Agree- ment 44/68) between the contracting countries in ques- tion is also in force. In addition, a corresponding agree- ment was made between the United States of America and Finland (Agreement 25/39) concerning conscription. A Finnish citizen, in relation to whom the aforementioned agreements apply, is not liable for military service, nor does he need to carry out service in relation to his lia- bility for military service in Finland during a time when he is considered to be a citizen of a contracting country other than Finland.
Persons with multiple nationalities living in contracting countries do not need to apply separately for ex-emption as the aforementioned agreements apply to them. Per- sons with multiple nationalities living in the aforemen- tioned contracting countries are encouraged to clarify their own position at the Finnish Embassy, consulate or their own supervisory Regional Office in Finland.
Persons liable for military service who are also citizens of another country and have lived elsewhere than in Fin- land for the last seven years are not obligated to come to the call-up or to report for military service. Such persons do not need to apply separately for exemption.
Persons with multiple nationalities living in contracting countries do not need to apply separately for ex-emption as the aforementioned agreements apply to them. Per- sons with multiple nationalities living in the aforemen- tioned contracting countries are encouraged to clarify their own position at the Finnish Embassy, consulate or their own supervisory Regional Office in Finland.
Persons liable for military service who are also citizens of another country and have lived elsewhere than in Fin- land for the last seven years are not obligated to come to the call-up or to report for military service. Such persons do not need to apply separately for exemption.
Finland admitted they made a mistake, however Border Protection stated they would not help rebook us. I am mainly concerned with recovering money for the flights (and incurred expenses, if possible).
Sep 6, 2015, 8:27 am
#21
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: CDG
Posts: 205
This is what I have always understood. The only reason I have ever heard of anyone traveling with two passports was to "skip the line". With my wife only being a US Citizen, it made more sense for me to only travel with my US Passport.
The closest I came to see was on a land crossing between Lebanon and Syria (before the current troubles). Lebanon is visa free for most EU citizens, but not for all Arab citizens. Syria was just the opposite. I traveled with an Arab-EU citizen, who switched passports in the km-long no man's land between both border checkpoints. Syrian couldn't find the Lebanese visa, so he explained the situation, and got a free visa ib his EU passport. Not such a lot of trouble IMO.
Sep 6, 2015, 9:05 am
#22
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I can't comment on how fruitful complaints to Finnish immigration are. I'm going to guess that would just be a waste of time as well.
Sep 6, 2015, 9:24 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8
Why would the airline owe him anything? They weren't involved at all. The kind/courteous thing that most airlines do in a case like this is book you on their next flight out. (People around here sometimes call it the "flat tire rule".) But if the airline doesn't have a flight for 2 days, what are they supposed to do? No airline...legacy, ULCC, or other...extends the "flat tire rule" to anything beyond their own flights.
I can't comment on how fruitful complaints to Finnish immigration are. I'm going to guess that would just be a waste of time as well.
I can't comment on how fruitful complaints to Finnish immigration are. I'm going to guess that would just be a waste of time as well.
Sep 6, 2015, 9:27 am
#24
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Thanks for the replies. To answer a few questions:
Finland having a rule on entering with a Finnish Passport: not that I'm aware of. When I became a US Citizen I took the Oath of Allegiance (to give up all other ties and citizenships), I've been working with the Finnish government to take the necessary steps to drop my Finnish citizenship (for the last 2 years - each time they require something more).
Norwegian: the only reason we flew Norwegian was because I wanted to experience the 787 (have not had a chance to fly on yet). I have not seen the discussions regarding their cancellations on here, but will check them out.
Adam1222: I really don't care about the line moving slow, my point was that they were almost harassing citizens of other countries. As far as Norwegian: the reason I posted here was to get other people's experiences, I've been reading stories of people missing flights due to TSA/etc and it appears that most of the time other airlines have just rebooked customers for the next flight. If Norwegian would have said "we'll put you on the plane in 2 days", I would have been happy with that.
Finland having a rule on entering with a Finnish Passport: not that I'm aware of. When I became a US Citizen I took the Oath of Allegiance (to give up all other ties and citizenships), I've been working with the Finnish government to take the necessary steps to drop my Finnish citizenship (for the last 2 years - each time they require something more).
Norwegian: the only reason we flew Norwegian was because I wanted to experience the 787 (have not had a chance to fly on yet). I have not seen the discussions regarding their cancellations on here, but will check them out.
Adam1222: I really don't care about the line moving slow, my point was that they were almost harassing citizens of other countries. As far as Norwegian: the reason I posted here was to get other people's experiences, I've been reading stories of people missing flights due to TSA/etc and it appears that most of the time other airlines have just rebooked customers for the next flight. If Norwegian would have said "we'll put you on the plane in 2 days", I would have been happy with that.
If you don't care about the line moving slowly, don't mention it. As a tip for writing complaints, leave out the "color" and minor gripes, as it makes the reader less sympathetic to what the actual issue is.
As for what "other airlines" do: 1) no airline is required to reaccommodate you if you miss a flight. Some airlines may if you get a nice agent. 2) an ultra low cost carrier is particularly unlikely to do so. They sold you a super cheap ticket and haven't built in the margins that would allow them to provide super, beyond what is called for, customer service.
As others have pointed out, Norwegian did absolutely nothing wrong here that would entitle you to anything. Could they have bent the rules to help you more? Sure. But the failure to do so doesn't entitle you to anything.
Sep 6, 2015, 9:43 am
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8
If you don't care about the line moving slowly, don't mention it. As a tip for writing complaints, leave out the "color" and minor gripes, as it makes the reader less sympathetic to what the actual issue is.
As for what "other airlines" do: 1) no airline is required to reaccommodate you if you miss a flight. Some airlines may if you get a nice agent. 2) an ultra low cost carrier is particularly unlikely to do so. They sold you a super cheap ticket and haven't built in the margins that would allow them to provide super, beyond what is called for, customer service.
As others have pointed out, Norwegian did absolutely nothing wrong here that would entitle you to anything. Could they have bent the rules to help you more? Sure. But the failure to do so doesn't entitle you to anything.
As for what "other airlines" do: 1) no airline is required to reaccommodate you if you miss a flight. Some airlines may if you get a nice agent. 2) an ultra low cost carrier is particularly unlikely to do so. They sold you a super cheap ticket and haven't built in the margins that would allow them to provide super, beyond what is called for, customer service.
As others have pointed out, Norwegian did absolutely nothing wrong here that would entitle you to anything. Could they have bent the rules to help you more? Sure. But the failure to do so doesn't entitle you to anything.
This is the first time anything like this has happened to me and just wanted to hear from other flyers on their experience. (I'm sure I am not the first one to miss a flight due to a hold-up beyond my control). If everyone here says that I'm SOL on the situation, then I'll accept that. Or, if most people comment that they've been rebooked in similar situations, then I'll have more reason to try and get some sort of reimbursement.
I'm sure there have been flyers who've missed flights due to TSA screenings, so I'm interested in hearing what has happened (I've searched through the forums for some experiences). I've had family who has missed connecting flights due to customs delays in Chicago and NY - they've always been rebooked (sometimes on the next day's flights).
Sep 6, 2015, 10:00 am
#26
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Finnish passport control are sticklers for "working to specification" in such a way that unions engaged in deliberate work slowdowns (as a form
of protest against employer) may only but admire how to do the same. Even when working to specification of sorts may be a violation of select agreements that are legally binding upon Finland.
Item 1 above is not true, but I leave it to you find out why it isn't.
DY -- not D8 -- tickets are often now more expensive than what I see for EU-US tickets on flights operated by the US3 and/or the US3's EU partner airlines. And yet DY's customer service is awful when things go wrong even on DY's expensive tickets.
My rule for myself: avoid DY for long-haul service.
of protest against employer) may only but admire how to do the same. Even when working to specification of sorts may be a violation of select agreements that are legally binding upon Finland.
DY -- not D8 -- tickets are often now more expensive than what I see for EU-US tickets on flights operated by the US3 and/or the US3's EU partner airlines. And yet DY's customer service is awful when things go wrong even on DY's expensive tickets.
My rule for myself: avoid DY for long-haul service.
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 6, 2015 at 10:09 am
Sep 6, 2015, 11:25 am
#27
Join Date: Sep 2013
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Same thing in the US as well as pretty much anywhere else. Immigration officers have a certain amount of authority (perhaps more than some other government agencies), and I do not believe governments will step in to cover any costs that follow from immigration officers doing their jobs.
Have never had any issues with DY, and the long-haul product was ok in my books. I can appreciate this type of a situation is not something I would like to ask DY to sort out for me though.
Sep 6, 2015, 2:05 pm
#29
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I was always under the impression that if you became a US citizen, you had to give up you citizenship of any other country (i.e. the US does not allow dual citizenship).
Assuming that you are not trying to retain dual citizenship, I might try and take it up with the US embassy. I would start there. In the end they were trying to deny your citizenship rights as a US citizen.
Assuming that you are not trying to retain dual citizenship, I might try and take it up with the US embassy. I would start there. In the end they were trying to deny your citizenship rights as a US citizen.
Sep 6, 2015, 3:18 pm
#30
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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I was always under the impression that if you became a US citizen, you had to give up you citizenship of any other country (i.e. the US does not allow dual citizenship).
Assuming that you are not trying to retain dual citizenship, I might try and take it up with the US embassy. I would start there. In the end they were trying to deny your citizenship rights as a US citizen.
Assuming that you are not trying to retain dual citizenship, I might try and take it up with the US embassy. I would start there. In the end they were trying to deny your citizenship rights as a US citizen.
2) Since he's a Finnish citizen in Finland his US citizenship means nothing in this case.