Why would the onus of proof be on me? One can't prove a negative, but can very easily prove a positive. People are demanding that I accept their argument without proof, or even credible evidence, but refuse to accept mine because there is no "proof".

I'm talking about US here. I don't know much about the laws of other countries. It may very well be a crime in NZ, although once again I doubt anyone's been prosecuted for it.

How do you know it's illegal? There is no statute specifically against it. There is a broad "theft of services" law, but whether it applies to this situation is anyone's guess until there is some case law. Reading the New York statute posted above, I don't think it would apply. We can discuss the details if you want.

Maybe we are talking about different situations here. The posts you link to appear to be situations where people were told to move back to economy and refused. As I clearly stated earlier, that would certainly make it theft, among other things. The situation I described, when I said "they can't force you to pay later" was assuming that you got off the plane without incident and then got a bill.

Let me spin this question a bit more. Those of you who think this is theft, please answer.

Let's say I book a middle seat because I don't want to pay extra for an aisle/window. I get on the plane and the aisle is vacant, so I move there, thereby giving both myself and the guy by the window a bit more room. Is that theft of services as well?

If not, what distinguishes this scenario from moving into first class?

Why? FT is international, as is airline travel. I can recall many stories on FT over the years involving upcharge and/or threat of arrest, including at least one which I reported. I vaguely recall a LH arrest at FRA or perhaps MUC from a few years ago reported by another poster. Searching the web in various languages would I'm sure bring up examples, besides the very few I posted here.

But it's past my bedtime, so I'll leave that for another day, or to another poster. But it definitely is not unheard of, as people have reported here (both passengers and crew)

I also had an experience about me being upgraded to the 1st class because they've made a mistake of assigning me to a seat where someone's already seated.
So, I've been upgraded to the 1st class and have been seated next to a politician and not so far away from me, there was a celebrity.

To someone with integrity and common sense, these are not tough situations.

1. If you snuck into a lounge, knowing full well that you did not belong there, you are a scumbag.

2. If both people can benefit by your moving from a middle to a window/aisle in coach, go ahead. I tend to be a petty @$$hole. I paid $$ for E+ on an UA flight (the seat in front of the door in coach on a 757). A 6'4" college basketball player boarded. The seat next to me was open. He took it. I had no problem with that. Had he moved to First, I would have had a problem with that. I can make these judgments.

The most hilariously clumsy attempt I've seen was on a very lightly loaded (~15 in Y, and ~5 in J) A320 ZRH-GVA mid-morning. I was seated in the front row of Y and was one of the first to board, so I got to watch the entire drama.

One woman walked past me to (I guess) her ticketed seat, then came back and plunked down in J. A moment later, a passenger boarded who actually had that J seat, so the FA came to resolve it, and told the woman to go back to her seat in Y. She went as far as the second row of Y, and then as soon as the FA turned her back, went forward and seated herself in J again. Unfortunately, she'd picked one of the other 4 seats that had been assigned, so when that passenger arrived, she was again sent back by the FA. I think she tried a third time as well, but the FA recognized her by then and there was, umm, Words.

This attempt was particularly ludicrous on a flight of less than an hour during the day when each Y passenger had a full row of seats to themselves; that is, there were no significant benefits to being in J compared to Y.

Was this simply for attempting a self-upgrade, or for causing a disturbance and being argumentative when call out be cc?

I suggested being one of the last to board so as to avoid/minimize the entire risk of jacking someone else's sear. I can't imagine you get in trouble if 1) you are confident. Don't walk to y and then walk back up. Don't sneak up Mid-flight - that would never work. Come in the door, fumbling a few papers it looking like u are on the go, make eye contact with the fa and smile and take the first open seat in j/y. If she asks about your boarding pass/seat number, pull out a passport stuffed with four or five. Fumble around. Then it's, "oh my, excuse me. This is the seat number for my next segment." Without then asking, get up and move to the correct seat. They surely would escort anyone off a plane, let alone contact authorities over that.

How Do you prove it was intentional theft vs. simply assumed the wrong seat... 2B instead if 12B

Thank you everyone else for the feedback, kind salutations, and cleaver spelling corrections. I am so glad that I have but a nerve, I mean, er, uh motivated some healthy discussion amongst the group. I can only imagine what would happen if I brought up corporate hotel discount codes ($90 JW with breakfast, Internet, and parking anyone? PM me) or out-of-date (read: former employer) rental car agreement numbers ($33/day Executive Selection with unlimited miles).

For the elite getting their upgrades on AA from PHX to BFE, I won't disturb you. I was mainly considering short- and medium-haul intra-Asian flights where F/J are empty.

So re-phrase it to a positive and go from there: "The airlines can charge for theft of service." You disagree with that statement: prove it is the case. Otherwise, all you've given us is, "No they can't."


You've just said you can't provide a proof. Make up your mind. Several people have said it's theft of service and have pointed to examples of laws and it being done IRL.

Are you using the word "proof" in the same way the rest of the world does?


As another nice poster has said, this is a global forum and I happen to be talking in a global context. Someone else has already pointed out some US law. I've pointed out NZ law because that's the one I work with most and had to hand most readily.

Again, I don't see that the fact of prosecution matters. The NZ law is very clear: it's "obtaining by deception." The law is on the books and NZ law is pleasantly clear on this point, so it's not a stretch to say "it's illegal" and "you can be arrested for it."


As an (mostly) aside, and just to engage in a bit of gross generalization for a moment, that is an interesting insight into the mindset of Americans; the idea that unless something is specifically and explicitly said, it doesn't count. It's a very literalist interpretation of how law works. Moreover, I simply don't think it's relevant: on most any ethical grounds it's theft (of one sort or another) and you said it wasn't illegal when it clearly is under several country's laws.


It would be very simple IMO: they charge you later for the service. It's trivial that the airline can charge the cost. When you say "They can't" I assume you actually mean they have no right to. But you haven't said anything to back up that assertion and whether you meant moral, ethical, or legal right.

If you contest it the CC company is unlikely to side with you. But if they do then you are, by default, admitting to theft of services or obtaining by deception. It's a no win situation for the thieving pax if the airline decides to pursue it.

Yes, it is. You've stolen the service which the airline prices at, what, $25-175, depending on the details. The only difference is one of degree.

Clearly, $25 is of less concern and harm (quantifiable, note) to the airline vs stealing the $11,000+ of service and deception of jumping from Y to F on an international transpacific flight. That's where discretion comes in in a court.

Would you say it isn't theft in that instance?

From a current thread on the AA forum

What if the crewmember instructs you to sing "God Save the Queen" while patting your head and hopping on one foot?

Twice a week when I walk through a large, not full club section on my way to economy, I look longingly at those empty seats and wonder, surely no one would notice if I just sat there?
Not talking about first class where they greet passengers by name and seat them. And i would wait until the flight is closing to board, so I know no one else is coming to fill the empty seats.
Would my plan work?
P.S. No need to discuss the morality here

I assume you mean Business Class.
Yes people will notice.
yes you will likely get yourself sent back to coach.

The flight attendants have a big list of who is sitting in those First and Business class seats which is how you are greeted by name when you are in them. They'll know when there is an extra person in them that shouldn't be! Sorry, you'll have to keep walking to economy!

The manifest has a passenger count by cabin on any air carrier I know of. Your use of "Club" suggests that you mean BA. They most certainly to such a count. When the count is off, they will go passenger-by-passenger and check names/BP's against the manifest.

Do it once and maybe all that happens is that you get booted back to WTP/WT. Do it a couple of times and you may get banned for a bit.