Upgrading Yourself
#46
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somewhere between here and there...
Programs: WWF, Appalachian Mountain Club
Posts: 11,595
And be sure to call the airline and complain when the class of service bonus doesn't post.
#47
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 765
What if you're in an exit row, last to board and notice an open seat in F and no seats in Y? You say that you don't feel like you're fit for the duties of the exit row. They have to move you to another seat, and it'll be quicker for them to move you to the open F seat than look through the Y list and pick out a passenger deserving of an upgrade, move all their stuff to the F seat, and then move your stuff to that Y seat.
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Oh yes they can. They can also have you arrested.
Theft of service.
Please don't play internet lawyer. You're not qualified and someone who believes you will get in a lot of trouble.
Please don't play internet lawyer. You're not qualified and someone who believes you will get in a lot of trouble.
#49
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
What evidence do you have for this? Has it ever happened? Has there been any indication from any police department or any airline that it might happen?
Given the reports we have read, people sneaking up into first class happens on flights quite regularly. I have observed it myself on several occasions, as have many of us. And yet, a search of the internet doesn't show up a single case of an airline doing anything other than sending them back. No arrests, no retroactive billing, nothing.
So what are these threats of dire consequences based on, other than a sense of superiority on the part of legitimate premium-cabin passengers?
You are the one that is playing "internet lawyer" by describing consequences that don't exist in reality. I am answering the question based on actual experiences of passengers.
So now you have a choice: go back to Y without another word, or give him/her some resistance, excuses, arguments, backtalk, and general pissiness.
Take the former route, and the situation is over and you enjoy the rest of your flight from your Y seat. Take the latter, and now you're a "security problem". You're disobeying crew commands and you're probably going to have a VIP greeting party waiting for you in the jetbridge when you land.
Take the former route, and the situation is over and you enjoy the rest of your flight from your Y seat. Take the latter, and now you're a "security problem". You're disobeying crew commands and you're probably going to have a VIP greeting party waiting for you in the jetbridge when you land.
#50
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
I'm a real lawyer and don't just play one on the internet.
What does that have to do with the law as it applies to this situation?
Yes.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...d.main/996091/
Well, obviously if you've never seen it, it never happens and it's not the law. Next time someone asks me about the law, I'll make sure to check with you first and see if you've seen it.
They are accurate statements of fact.
No, the difference between you're playing internet lawyer and me is that one of us has a license to practice law and give legal advice . . . and it's not you.
No, you're answering the question based on your own limited experience, and the limited experience of some of the people who have posted here. However, what you are dead wrong about is that there is no law that prohibits self-upgrading, and telling people that is stupid and dangerous.
Has it ever happened?
Has there been any indication from any police department or any airline that it might happen?
Have you ever heard of the term, "Theft of Services"?
When I was at American, we had a passenger board and "just sit in an empty first class seat". The lead flight attendant realized soon enough he wasn't supposed to be there, and asked him his name. He replied, she checked the manifest, and explained to him his seat was in the main cabin. His response was a simplistic "well, this was open, so I'm gonna sit here instead". Instead of making a huge scene, the flight attendant walked away, and offered the passenger the same amenities throughout the flight as she did to the other first class passengers.
When they landed at our station, the police met the aircraft, and it was explained to the gentleman he could either pay the difference between his 21-day advance purchase coach and full fare First (if I remember correctly it was around $1400), or he would be arrested for "Theft of Services". He paid.
Granted this is an extreme example, and most likely, the flight attendant would "loudly" explain that you need to take your seat in coach.
We put up with enough these days, and contrary to popular belief, do not enjoy confrontations. Please just follow the rules, everybody else has to.
Oh, and btw, this topic has been discussed a thousand times before.
Travis
When I was at American, we had a passenger board and "just sit in an empty first class seat". The lead flight attendant realized soon enough he wasn't supposed to be there, and asked him his name. He replied, she checked the manifest, and explained to him his seat was in the main cabin. His response was a simplistic "well, this was open, so I'm gonna sit here instead". Instead of making a huge scene, the flight attendant walked away, and offered the passenger the same amenities throughout the flight as she did to the other first class passengers.
When they landed at our station, the police met the aircraft, and it was explained to the gentleman he could either pay the difference between his 21-day advance purchase coach and full fare First (if I remember correctly it was around $1400), or he would be arrested for "Theft of Services". He paid.
Granted this is an extreme example, and most likely, the flight attendant would "loudly" explain that you need to take your seat in coach.
We put up with enough these days, and contrary to popular belief, do not enjoy confrontations. Please just follow the rules, everybody else has to.
Oh, and btw, this topic has been discussed a thousand times before.
Travis
Given the reports we have read, people sneaking up into first class happens on flights quite regularly. I have observed it myself on several occasions, as have many of us. And yet, a search of the internet doesn't show up a single case of an airline doing anything other than sending them back. No arrests, no retroactive billing, nothing.
So what are these threats of dire consequences based on, other than a sense of superiority on the part of legitimate premium-cabin passengers?
You are the one that is playing "internet lawyer" by describing consequences that don't exist in reality.
I am answering the question based on actual experiences of passengers.
#51
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
If one self-upgraded and they were arrested for theft (of service), that still does not get a monetary award for aa. A separate civil suit would have to be pushed forward for aa to get their money.
Assuming the poacher were arrested, it is more than likely that aa would not push the criminal part in lieu of getting paid.
BUT, there are a lot of grey areas in the above scenario...
Assuming the poacher were arrested, it is more than likely that aa would not push the criminal part in lieu of getting paid.
BUT, there are a lot of grey areas in the above scenario...
#52
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PDX
Programs: DL, UA, AA, BA, AS, SPG, MR, IHG, PC
Posts: 862
If one self-upgraded and they were arrested for theft (of service), that still does not get a monetary award for aa. A separate civil suit would have to be pushed forward for aa to get their money.
Assuming the poacher were arrested, it is more than likely that aa would not push the criminal part in lieu of getting paid.
BUT, there are a lot of grey areas in the above scenario...
Assuming the poacher were arrested, it is more than likely that aa would not push the criminal part in lieu of getting paid.
BUT, there are a lot of grey areas in the above scenario...
#53
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: LHR GVA HKG TLV PVG JFK
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 3,952
Ptravel question to you:
If you walk into a lounge, there is no lounge dragon at the moment and you walk in. As it turns out you had no right to be there. is that theft of service?
If you walk into a lounge, there is no lounge dragon at the moment and you walk in. As it turns out you had no right to be there. is that theft of service?
I'm a real lawyer and don't just play one on the internet.
What does that have to do with the law as it applies to this situation?
Yes.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...d.main/996091/
Well, obviously if you've never seen it, it never happens and it's not the law. Next time someone asks me about the law, I'll make sure to check with you first and see if you've seen it.
They are accurate statements of fact.
No, the difference between you're playing internet lawyer and me is that one of us has a license to practice law and give legal advice . . . and it's not you.
No, you're answering the question based on your own limited experience, and the limited experience of some of the people who have posted here. However, what you are dead wrong about is that there is no law that prohibits self-upgrading, and telling people that is stupid and dangerous.
What does that have to do with the law as it applies to this situation?
Yes.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...d.main/996091/
Well, obviously if you've never seen it, it never happens and it's not the law. Next time someone asks me about the law, I'll make sure to check with you first and see if you've seen it.
They are accurate statements of fact.
No, the difference between you're playing internet lawyer and me is that one of us has a license to practice law and give legal advice . . . and it's not you.
No, you're answering the question based on your own limited experience, and the limited experience of some of the people who have posted here. However, what you are dead wrong about is that there is no law that prohibits self-upgrading, and telling people that is stupid and dangerous.
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Theft of service is, I expect, a "general intent" crime, meaning only that you intended the conduct that was criminal, as opposed to intending to do specific harm (a "specific intent" crime). If you can convince a trier-of-fact that you held the subjective belief that the lounge was open to all for free, and that belief was objectively reasonable, no crime would be committed. Good luck with that, though.
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: south of WAS DC
Posts: 10,131
until a few years back, it was common for nr ua employees to float up from y to biz class. they would hang over the biz class seat and loudly discuss where they had been and which mutual acquaintances they had met in the past while. i got tired of this after the second or third go round, and started ringing the fa bell and requested the offender be locked back in their cage. once i even got mouth from the fa for efforts. got on the bell and got the purser.
this all seemed to have stopped a couple years ago.
this all seemed to have stopped a couple years ago.
#56
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA Gold 1MM, AS MVP, UA Silver, WN A-List, Marriott LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 52,570
What if you're in an exit row, last to board and notice an open seat in F and no seats in Y? You say that you don't feel like you're fit for the duties of the exit row. They have to move you to another seat, and it'll be quicker for them to move you to the open F seat than look through the Y list and pick out a passenger deserving of an upgrade, move all their stuff to the F seat, and then move your stuff to that Y seat.
Besides, if anybody was going to get a freebie upgrade that way, they might attempt to find the next elite who was on the upgrade list...sort of depends on how that airline's upgrade system works. I've actually had this happen on UA where I had just missed out on the upgrade at boarding time...then a few minutes later the GA came on and moved me up to F when one F passenger no-showed. Then the last standby boarded and took my Y seat as the door closed. They can do this rather quickly, even in the minutes before pushback.
I wouldn't wager my exit row seat like that.
#57
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
You can try to guess how the law would apply to this situation, but until someone is prosecuted and found guilty, your guess is just that, a guess. I'm not entirely convinced that the New York law someone posted earlier would cover this situation. However, I can see why people might disagree.
#58
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2012
Programs: A3, AA. Plasticy things! That give me, y'know, Stuff!
Posts: 6,293
Combine consecutive posts of same member.
You made the statement that the airline can't bill you later: the onus of proof is on you for that one. Time for you to put up.
Someone also mentioned Theft of Service, which is a US term. It's equally illegal in other countries. For example, in NZ it would be theft of goods and services, misrepresentation for material gain, obtaining by deception, and a couple of other things under the Crimes Act.
It is irrelevant whether there is case law on it: it's still illegal. Whether the airlines lay complaints or ask for prosecutions for it doesn't matter. It's still illegal, no matter how you try to spin it.
If no one has ever been prosecuted for this "crime", despite hundreds of people doing it every year, then that is a pretty good indication that it's not as big a deal as you think.
Does the lack of, say, treason cases in most countries mean that treason isn't anything important too? You're "reasoning" is full of holes.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Feb 19, 2013 at 4:05 pm
#59
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
Does FT count as the internet? I'm using the French interwebs so they may be different that that new-fangled American one, but it took not very long to find these tales. Of course, it's only a purser reporting first hand a police officer forcing the passengers to pay the upgrade fee on landing.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ted-out-f.html
And another
(Seconds of using the googler found this, but of course it concerns furriners on a furrin carrier arrested in a furrin city...)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ested-man.html
Page 2 of that thread has a criminal barrister (one of those legaltypes, for those who don't speak British) essentially agreeing with PTravel, oddly enough.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ted-out-f.html
I was working as Purser several years ago on a 777 from Denver to IAD. About 2/3 of the way through, a FA from business came up and told me that two passengers sitting in business were not on the manifest. Apparently the psgrs were exceedingly nice, and the FA wanted to know their names to thank them.
They were premier-level psgrs booked in row 17 in economy. I confronted them and they admitted that they decided to upgrade themselves since business was only about half full. At this point we were about 30 min from landing. I told them they could stay were they were, but a CSR would meet them upon landing to deduct miles from their account for the upgrade.
They were escorted out to the podium, and a few minutes later the CSR came down to ask me what happened. Apparently they told the CSR that they "accidently sat down in the wrong seats".
Long story short they were each required to pay $630 and a police officer was there at the podium and would not let them leave until the credit cards were handed over! They did not look like happy campers when I walked by!
They were premier-level psgrs booked in row 17 in economy. I confronted them and they admitted that they decided to upgrade themselves since business was only about half full. At this point we were about 30 min from landing. I told them they could stay were they were, but a CSR would meet them upon landing to deduct miles from their account for the upgrade.
They were escorted out to the podium, and a few minutes later the CSR came down to ask me what happened. Apparently they told the CSR that they "accidently sat down in the wrong seats".
Long story short they were each required to pay $630 and a police officer was there at the podium and would not let them leave until the credit cards were handed over! They did not look like happy campers when I walked by!
As we had many hours until arrival, the Purser told the pilots, who had time to coordinate with IAD customer service, law enforcement, and the immigration folks (she seemed to be Italian). When we arrived at IAD, those people came on and surrounded her. She claimed not to have a credit card, but was given the choice of either arrest or not being admitted into the U.S., or coughing up a credit card. A credit card appeared. The look on her face was priceless.
14 ARRESTED AFTER ECONOMY PASSENGERS STORM FIRST CLASS
By Pat Hurst, PA.
Angry economy passengers stormed first class on an international flight in a
mid-air upgrading mutiny, it was disclosed today.
The pilot of the packed Pakistan International Airlines jet radioed ahead, and
14 people were arrested on suspicion of endangering the aircraft after landing
at Manchester Airport.
Cabin crew lost control after the flight was delayed for four hours in searing
heat on the tarmac at Islamabad airport in Pakistan.
With economy packed, a number of passengers decided to upgrade themselves to the empty luxury section at the front of the Boeing 747.
It is believed the crew asked them to move but they refused, so police were
called in as the plane landed in the UK on Friday morning.
By Pat Hurst, PA.
Angry economy passengers stormed first class on an international flight in a
mid-air upgrading mutiny, it was disclosed today.
The pilot of the packed Pakistan International Airlines jet radioed ahead, and
14 people were arrested on suspicion of endangering the aircraft after landing
at Manchester Airport.
Cabin crew lost control after the flight was delayed for four hours in searing
heat on the tarmac at Islamabad airport in Pakistan.
With economy packed, a number of passengers decided to upgrade themselves to the empty luxury section at the front of the Boeing 747.
It is believed the crew asked them to move but they refused, so police were
called in as the plane landed in the UK on Friday morning.
Page 2 of that thread has a criminal barrister (one of those legaltypes, for those who don't speak British) essentially agreeing with PTravel, oddly enough.
Last edited by exbayern; Feb 19, 2013 at 4:01 pm
#60
Senior Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: UA Plat/2MM [23-yr. 1K, now emeritus] clawing way back to WN-A List; MR LT Titanium; HY Whateverist.
Posts: 12,396
Moderator caution.
Recently, this thread has become a heated argument among a very few challenging each other. The FlyerTalk Rules (see Help menu) request that members discuss the topic and not each other. Let's follow that principle by debating the topic and not attacking members. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator.