Swissaire

I have traveled on a LH flight to FRA once, with a similar passenger.

I had requested and had a specific seat, but was asked during the flight by an FA to accommodate a mother and her child, and I was then moved to the back of the aircraft. The seat was not as the say " as described., " and the passenger i was seated next to was enormous. She did not speak German, French, Italian, Russian, or English, and the kindest thing I can say is she certainly kept me warm with her body rolls for 10 hours. Unfortunately, it was a Summer flight.

As the passenger was able to belt into the seat, it was not a problem for LH. I, on the other hand I was unable to open my tray, so I didn't eat. Note that I was seated against the window, in a two seat corner, so an emergency would have been very interesting.

Exiting the aircraft, one of the FA's servicing the rear of the aircraft being either dense or intentionally curt, asked me why I didn't eat. Taking a slow breath, I explained as calmly as I could. I was offered a bottle of champagne, but thinking I would probably be arrested for clocking an FA over the head, I declined as nicely as I could.

My wife hearing about this incident that evening ( after the final Malpensa leg ) was furious, as I had requested and paid for that specific seat, well in advance. The next day it was September 11th, 2001, and events took over any thought of complaint. But it does provide some personal experience with this incident.

In this case, reading this article details in Deutsche Welle, Die Welt, Le Temps, Journal du Jura, including FT online, and seeing it featured on numerous news programs, I get a good picture of the situation. Certainly, I do feel sorry for the family. The death of any relative or loved one is a loss: No question.

But I cannot fault LH, nor any other airline for refusing this woman as a passenger. She presented an obvious safety problem to the flight, to herself, and the other passengers. My thinking is that she should have been under a doctor's care, or in a hospital. One does not refrain from visiting a local physician if one is ill.

For example, one of my uncles became quite ill visiting the Grand Canyon, and wanted to fly back home, which is understandable, just as this woman and her husband did. But my uncle was seen by a doctor instead, and then admitted to a hospital, rather than flying home. He was not released to return until one month later when he stabilized and recovered somewhat. It turned out he was very ill, and in no condition to fly. And that return one month later, was by an air ambulance covered by his insurance, and not a commercial flight with other passengers.

Clearly, one should not fly if one presents a safety hazard.

exilencfc

Real shame for her and her family but I don't see how its the airline's fault. If somebody can't be gotten on to their aircraft there isn't much they can do about it - and they did try to re-accomodate. The airline certainly isn't responsible for her failing to seek medical treatment, especially in a country she knows well and quite likely speaks the language. Even if the avialable treatment wouldn't have been on a par with what she's have got at home it would have been a great deal better than nothing

USA_flyer

I also don't see how it's the airlines fault. She was under Doctors care in the US, I don't see how she got their permission for travel.

DeafFlyer

That would be a much preferred method. ^

MSPeconomist

It's not at all obvious that she would fit into a FC or business class seat. On the intraEU KLM flight, it would have been their Eurobusiness class with regular coach seats where the middle seat is empty. There might have been a physical barrier in the middle seat to prevent its use, but I would guess not on KLM (unlike LH). On DL TATL flights, some use the 757 with regular 3-3 coach in the back and seats with fixed arm rests in front, which do tend to be wider. The 767s have narrow seats, maybe an inch wider than coach and again fixed arm rests separate the seats. The A330 BE seat is the former NW WBC seat; it's wider that the DL 767 BE seats, but still not very wide for a morbidly obese person.

DeafFlyer

I hope you're talking specifically about this woman. In one European country, and no doubt others, it is the fire department that assists disabled pax to their seats. Are you now saying that any disabled passenger that needs this assistance should not be allowed to fly? I hope not. I have made over 20 flights to and from, and within Europe safely while using the service provided. Am I not allowed to fly now?

artemis

She looks like a water balloon about to burst - very, very swollen (and maybe Cushingoid as well). I have no trouble believing that with her poor kidney function, she gained a massive amount of water weight during her vacation in Hungary. That just makes things sadder. If she'd gone to a European hospital, they might have been able to get that water weight back off, and she'd have fit (barely) into a standard row of seats. (After all, she fit on a commercial plane back in September when she flew over.) Alternately, she might have qualified for an air ambulance. Either way, she'd be home.

It seems to me the couple became fixated on the wrong thing: "we must get home" instead of "we must get help". It was a fatal mistake (and not one made by the airlines).

All in all, it's a very sad story.

celle

Yes, it is very unfortunate.

It is quite believable that this poor woman did gain a great deal of weight while in Hungary. Her abdomen looks very swollen. People in kidney failure can accumulate lots of fluid and much of that goes into the abdomen.

If she had been having treatment for kidney failure while in the USA and then had no treatment in Hungary, massive fluid retention is just what would have occurred. At that stage, dialysis and draining her abdomen could have been done, if only she had not elected to refuse treatment in Hungary.

Poor decisions were made by this woman and her husband - it's not the airlines' fault.

exilencfc

I was wondering about that. Would she have needed some kind of fit to fly certification? If so it might make interesting reading.

Mind you, even if she was certified as fit to make the trip, it was still her choice to go somewhere that didn't have sufficient medical support for her condition.

celle

I am sure that there is more to this story than we have heard.

I am almost willing to think that she never even told her US doctors that she was contemplating such a journey without arranging ongoing medical care. If she had told them, they would have advised strongly against such a course of action.

Maybe she knew that her time was limited and decided to visit Hungary "one last time"?

Christopher

Hungary has sufficent medical support for her condition. It seems that, for whatever reason, she chose not to avail herself of it.

GUWonder

I am not so certain that her family's former home country (i.e. Hungary) had sufficient medical support for her needs this year. Sufficient medical support -- in a former home country involving new doctor(s) -- may be doubtful when dealing with a person meeting all of the following conditions: has a very complicated medical history of illnesses; and would have limited (if any) timely contact with relevant specialists working closely with a long-standing internist; and prescribed drug and/or diet regimen adjustments may be problematic in one or more ways.

This isn't to say that she returned to Hungary against the directions of her doctors in the US. It is to say that the situation is almost certainly complex enough that playing medical treatment hopscotch in Europe in the last month or two of her life wouldn't necessarily have solved anything for her.

[Medical tourism to even high-priced medical facilities in the US is a business that has held up pretty well despite the economic cycle. That kind of business orientation is why teams catering to visiting foreigners were created at the likes of Mayo and Cleveland Clinics. Many such visitors come from countries that have far better advanced medical service capabilities than Hungary.]

Can't say I blame her or her husband for wanting to get back to the US -- for medical reasons and probably family reasons too.

I wouldn't be so sure of your second sentence above. Some people consulting their doctors with at least two of her conditions are not necessarily advised strongly against travel (to a former home country, or travel between a former home country and the current host country) yet they die within a few weeks or months of travel. Sometimes bodily functions vacillate between some modicum of stability and instability such that medical experts cannot reliably predict problems in any meaningful, actionable way with time specificity. Certainly they could advise her of heightened risks and probably did. I would be surprised if all of her US doctors were unaware of her foreign travel -- some of the doctors would almost certainly have been involved in getting her prescriptions sourced in the US in advance of her travel, and some would almost certainly have had appointment schedules adjusted due to her travel plans.

celle

This was a woman in an advanced stage of diabetes - witness the leg amputation because of diabetes - and in renal failure, also subsequent to the diabetes. Her long-term prognosis was not good, regardless of where she lived.

While I agree that no hospital in Hungary could have immediately picked up the ball and given her the long-term care she needed, emergency treatment over the course of a few days could have stabilised her diabetes long enough for her to travel back to the USA and could have relieved her of some of the acute fluid retention. Presented with her current condition, it really would not have been necessary to know her long-term medical history in order to treat her and give her the temporary relief that would have, perhaps, allowed her to fly home to the USA.

I do not believe that any responsible medical practitioner would have advised her to travel to Hungary for such a long period of time without making some arrangements for continuing care.

GUWonder

I have dealt with arranging the transport of patients with many of the same primary problems she had, and that is why there is reason to doubt claims about the adequacy of treatment for her in Hungary in October and also to doubt claims about what would supposedly be advised by responsible medical service providers. [A few such patients were even from families full of caring doctors in their immediate and extended family circle where the doctors are/were in the employ of the most highly regarded medical institutions serving people who can afford the best medical service and transport services in the world.]

Has her family yet sued her US medical service providers? That may be rather telling.

celle

OK. I bow to your experience about arranging transport for sick people. Can you accept that I have medical experience and knowledge?

The poor woman was in an advanced stage of physical deterioration due to her diabetes. She was already having signs of renal failure and was probably well on the way to multiple organ failure. That, unfortunately, is often the end-result of diabetes, no matter how good the medical care.

Whether with the knowledge and consent of her doctors or not, she and her husband made unwise choices - in going to Hungary, in staying so long in Hungary, and in refusing to seek medical help while in Hungary. I will not go into speculating whether her own management of her diabetes contributed in any way to her condition.

At the very least, a hospital in Hungary (or in any other, nearby, European country) could have drained the excess fluid from her abdomen, thus reducing her weight by several pounds and, possibly, allowing her to be a little more mobile. It isn't a particularly skilled or difficult procedure - I have seen first-year house surgeons perform it.

Her death was not the fault of the doctors or the airlines - why are Americans so keen to sue, instead of accepting personal responsibility?