jlemon

6) The common denominator for all of these smaller destinations served by the original Frontier was......the airline operated Boeing 737-200 service to all of them.

12) Correct! At this time, Northeast only operated into Cleveland on Saturdays and Sundays only. There was no weekday CLE service on a Monday through Friday basis whatsoever by NE back then.....

AeroWesty

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! ^^

AA581 DTW-ORD-TUS-PSP-LAX

AA388 LAX-PSP-TUS-ORD-LGA

jlemon

Indeed and correct as well!

Here are the respective DC-10 schedules with arrival and departure times (all times local, of course).....and both flights operated on a daily basis......

AA 581: DTW 4:51pm-5:00pm ORD 5:45pm-8:12pm TUS 8:50pm-8:51pm PSP 9:21pm-9:55pm LAX

AA 388: LAX 5:45am-6:26am PSP 7:05am-8:59am TUS 9:55am-2:00pm ORD 3:00pm-5:51pm LGA

I'll go ahead and answer the remaining question as well....

13) In February of 1976, what airline served Morristown, NJ (MMU) and what type of equipment did they fly?

Answer: New York Airways (NY) operating Sikorsky S-61 helicopter service nonstop or direct to EWR, JFK and LGA.

I'll attempt to have some additional questions in the near future (and hopefully won't screw them up too badly).....

AeroWesty

While waiting for a batch of excellent new questions from jlemon, I've a couple to throw to y'all. (They may be too obscure, but with this crowd you never know!)

A) In the Bermuda II agreement signed in 1977, 5th Freedom rights were granted to U.S. airlines to carry local traffic beyond the U.K. to four points within West Germany.

1) Name the three destinations in West Germany where only one U.S. carrier was allowed these rights

2) Name the one destination in West Germany where two U.S. carriers were allowed these rights

Bonus points: Name the airlines granted the rights for each West German destination.

B) At LGW, in the late 1980s (beginning '87/'88), a U.S. airline placed its code and flight number on a European airline's flight as a codeshare/interline service to a destination in a third country within continental Europe. Today, it would be tantamount to UA placing UA900 on an LH flight originating at FRA without using a separate codeshare flight number to indicate that it involves a change of airline somewhere along the route.

1) Name the airlines involved:
a) U.S.
b) European

2) Name the U.S. origin(s) and European destination

Bonus points: The U.S. airline's flight numbers for this service are still in use today from a U.S. city to Heathrow. Which U.S. city?

Seat 2A

1) Name the three destinations in West Germany where only one U.S. carrier was allowed these rights

Let's try Berlin, Munich and Hamburg, all of them served by Pan American

2) Name the one destination in West Germany where two U.S. carriers were allowed these rights

Frankfurt via Pan American and TWA

PhotoJim

The pedant in me wants to say that Berlin wasn't in West Germany. East Berlin was sort of in the DDR (the Allies refused to accept that though, legally speaking) and West Berlin was a specially administered area under the control of France, the USA and the UK. While in most senses and purposes it was part of West Germany, legally, it wasn't (it had to annually pass a law to accept all West German law changes, e.g.).

So if our question asker is a smarty bidarty, Berlin may NOT be one of the answers.

AeroWesty

Correctomundo!

I didn't want to be cruel, but I did wonder if that would stump the audience, though!

WHBM

Just to help, the Bermuda 2 agreement does not stipulate countries, only cities.

Both these operations from London to Germany were actually long-standing, Pan Am and TWA continuing to through-route 747s to Frankfurt; back in propeller aircraft days they both had a much larger representation on this route, with multiple daily flights each. In 1980 Pan Am also used a 727 (one of the Berlin fleet) from Heathrow to Hamburg, which continued to Berlin, and connected with the inbound transatlantic flights; I can recall seeing them coming over Central London at breakfast time. The Berlin "corridor" flights from West Germany collected a subsidy from the authorities, so it made financial sense for them to stop in West Germany and thus collect this - BEA/BA used to do the same. There was no real intention to handle local passengers, but it used to skim a proportion of the morning traffic from BA and Lufthansa. United did the same with 727s for a couple of years when they took over Pan Am's flights, whereas American never did follow through TWA's rights.

Over the years things switched around. By 1988 the ill-fated PA103 had used a 727 from Frankfurt to London, changing gauge there onto the 747 which was destroyed at Lockerbie.

This led to WHBM being thrown off an East Berlin tram in the 1980s by the Stasi on a route which crossed the quite unmarked border from Berlin City into the DDR. I had thought I'd be quite OK and unchecked going down to the end of the line and back, but they boarded at the first stop after the invisible line, and came straight for me. All very politely done, and the two of them just put me on the next one back into the city. I swear I nearly got a salute from them as the return tram set off. What a fascinating place Berlin, both sides, was for transport in those times.

AeroWesty

Oh no, it definitely does stipulate countries without cities specified at times. The agreements covered both Atlantic and Pacific routes which passed through U.S. and U.K. points plus their individual territories. The Bermuda agreements even covered U.S. traffic rights to Hong Kong plus how beyond rights from there could be structured, such as Thailand and Singapore could both be served beyond HKG as long as they weren't combined on the same flight.

Both Bermuda 1 and 2 are interesting reading if you're into that kind of stuff.

WHBM

Indeed the agreement does elsewhere (including some lists that mix up cities and countries). But they seem to have avoided controversy over these cities.

Further trivia 1, there is one non-German city also specified in Bermuda 2 for such service in Europe from Heathrow by a US carrier. As far as I'm aware the rights were never used. Any guesses ?

Further trivia 2, BEA/British Airways never had any service to a GDR/East Germany airport. Or did they ? And did they even use Concorde on the service there once ?

AeroWesty

Unless you count Turkey in Europe, there weren't any other cities in B2 I've found where local traffic was allowed beyond the U.K. other than the ones stipulated in Germany. There were rights at varying times to points in Belgium, The Netherlands, Austria, Norway and Sweden which were allowed for non-local through traffic beyond the U.K., while at the same time France was eliminated as an eligible country from the list for whatever reason in B2.

Seat 2A

I think it was either Oslo or Copenhagen. With a 50% chance of being correct - better'n most of my odds - let's go with Oslo...

WHBM

The other European city in Bermuda 2 was Oslo. Spot on S2A. There must have been some reason why it was included.

The UK Government report on B2 is here. It was written in 1999, by which time all such services from Heathrow to Europe had ceased. The city listings are in paragraph 24.

http://www.publications.parliament.u.../532/53206.htm

AeroWesty

Bermuda II was updated a number of times, with the original document including varying clauses coming into effect at set milestones. For instance, initially Austria and Belgium routes could only be operated for non-local traffic up until 1980, with routes to the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden operated until 1982. I flew UA LHR-AMS in 1992, so obviously both local and non-local rights had been updated since then.

Oslo wasn't a destination allowed in the 1977 agreement as a local traffic city pair. If memory serves from a previous discussion about it on another site, Oslo was substituted for Bergen at some point in time during one of these updates.

<pendant>

My original question was: In the Bermuda II agreement signed in 1977 ...

</pendant>

Seat 2A

We love your questions, jlemon! They are always excellent and well thought out. Hopefully the questions below will tide us over until your next set hits the thread...

By 1988 we were ten years into deregulation and change was in the air with a variety of bankruptcies, mergers, etc. The hub and spoke system was in and some routes, long flown by established carriers like AA, were now being dropped by their traditional carriers and being served by entirely different airlines, some of them long established and others relatively new.

The first ten questions were taken from the May 15th, 1988 OAG

1. Spring is late in coming to Alaska and so you’ve decided to take advantage of the only nonstop flight between Anchorage and Honolulu. Which airline and aircraft would you have flown upon? Answered

2. Moving from the tropics to the desert, you’ve booked yourself aboard the only nonstop flight offered between Honolulu and Las Vegas. It operates just twice a week. Name the airline and aircraft. Answered

3. Business calls you to Detroit, Michigan. If it’s any consolation, springtime in Detroit is a heckuva lot nicer than winter in Detroit. You’ve booked yourself a seat aboard the only airline serving the Las Vegas to Detroit market with a wide bodied aircraft. Name the airline and aircraft.

4. You’d like to fly aboard an L-1011 on your upcoming trip from Detroit to Montreal. What airline would you call? Answered

5. The 767 has been around for almost six years and yet you’ve still never managed a flight aboard one. Your chance to rectify this shortcoming arrives aboard this airline’s twice weekly direct flight between Montreal and Miami. Which airline would you be flying aboard?
Answered

6. This airline offers the only nonstop DC-10 service between Miami and New York. Answered

7. Name the two airlines that offer nonstop service between New York (any airport) and Las Vegas Answered

8. You’ve been invited to judge a barbecue competition in Kansas City. Mmmm! This airline offers the only nonstop wide bodied service between New York and Kansas City with a single morning departure. Breakfast will be served. Which airline and aircraft would you be flying upon?

9. It’s hard to beat that KC BBQ, but you’ll try in a city known for the quality of its Tex-Mex cuisine. That would be San Antonio. To get there you’ll fly nonstop aboard this airline’s single daily 737-200, the only service – nonstop or direct - offered by any airline on this route. Which airline would you be flying? Answered

10. The Convair 580 was nearing the end of its run in American skies, but one intra-state airline still provided twice daily service aboard the 580 between San Antonio and Laredo, Texas. What airline was this? Answered

11. Boeing has customer designations for its aircraft that are unique to the airline that originally ordered the aircraft. For example, 727-200s would be designated as -224s for Continental, -225s for Eastern or -232 for Delta. Upon reaching 99, Boeing started adding a letter into the mix, such as -2A1 for the Brazilian airline VASP. Name two major US airlines still in operation that fly Boeing aircraft designated with this number/letter combination. Answered

12. This airline began operation as the first “Smoke Free” airline in the U.S. Later, after its purchase by another airline, smoking was allowed onboard its flights. What airline was this? Answered

13. What now defunct U.S. airline once flew “The Indian Trail Route”? Bonus points if you can list the cities served along this route. Answered

14. What was the first U.S. Airline to sponsor an English football club?

15. This airline became the first to install television aboard its airplanes. Which airline was it and what year did this happen?

16. In 1961, this became the first U.S. airline to utilize a centralized computer based reservation service. What airline was it?