cs57

It was TransAmerica Airlines with 747 service between STL and DFW. The 2/15/85 OAG shows one-weekly service (Sunday) This airline was once called Trans International Airlines and was a large charter operator.

WHBM

But "it wasn't an American airline", and Transamerica surely are .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...work_expansion

cs57

I stand corrected, as I rushed to answer the question without reading the whole question! While I saw that B. Cal ran the service with DC10 aircraft, was it British Airways (briefly) with 747 aircraft? (just after the merger)

tonywestsider

Except TWA and BOAC and many other carriers took the more southerly route in this region to Athens, Cairo and then to Basra.

It was Pan American World Airways that took the more northerly route in the region, where their Around the World Services went through Istanbul and serviced, exactly as WHBM said, with Lockheed L749 Constellations.

Not sure what you are referring to when you mention Air America.

WHBM

Regarding that Dallas to St Louis 747, it's notable that such an oddball routing gives rise to finding two separate operators doing it at around the same time. Transamerica/Trans International were a charter operator who presumably were operating this flight just as a tag onto some other flight of theirs.

Charter flights were once quite a significant proportion of the transatlantic market, and there were a wide range of operators from both sides. London Gatwick airport (charters have long been kept well away from Heathrow) could have a whole string of them just arrived on a summer morning, the US operators with their Super DC8s and the UK and Canadian ones with their 707s. Anyone like to name those who might be found there in, say 1969 (when I also crossed the Atlantic on one of them). I reckon there might be a dozen or more.

letmeinplz

Mainland/Hawaii---Delta, ATA, and Ryan?

jlemon

Here's what I found with regard to the Transamerica B747 service between STL and DFW. Data is taken from a Transamerica (TV) timetable:

TV 001 - STL-DFW-HNL operated on Saturdays only

TV 003 - STL-DFW-LAX-HNL operated on Tuesdays only

So I think this service was actually aimed at those wishing to travel to and from Hawaii, although pax traffic could also be carried between STL, DFW and LAX. In addition, I think the above reference to "American" was meant to refer to AA.

As cs57 states, Transamerica was indeed previously known as Trans International Airlines. The carrier also operated service from New York at this time as well, including JFK-TLV eastbound nonstops with B747 equipment. Interestingly, the return flights from Tel Aviv included a stop at FRA and the airline did offer seats for sale on this westbound leg from Frankfurt to New York but did not serve FRA with eastbound service from JFK at this time.

And there was one other service operated by Transamerica from New York at this same time: JFK-SNN, which was flown with a re-engined DC-8 Super 73 series aircraft.

CubsFanJohn

Back in the 70's when AA had it's HNL-Australia routes didn't they (AA) fly STL-HNL IIRC?

jlemon

Yes, I believe they did. We had a discussion about that very topic on this thread awhile back. I think AA operated their nonstop STL-HNL service with a B707.

And that engenders another question: name two (2) other U.S. air carriers that flew STL-HNL nonstop.

Seat 2A

As a longtime airline postcard collector, I'll take a shot, guessing simply at the names of some supplemental carriers that I'm pretty sure operated back then. I've no real idea whether they operated trans-Atlantic services to London...

U.S. Airlines

Saturn (707, DC-8)
World (707, DC-8)
Universal (DC-8)
Overseas National Airlines (DC-8)
Capitol (DC-8)
Modern Air (990)
Trans-International (DC-8)
American Flyers Airline (707 and maybe 727)
Seaboard (707, DC-8)

(If I can think of any more I'll add 'em to this list. Many of the above airlines went on to order and operate widebodied aircraft in the 1970s and beyond)

British Airlines
British Eagle (707)
Donaldson (707)
Invicta (I'm pretty sure this was British but...?) (707)

Canadian Airlines

Wardair (707)

Well, TWA for sure. I remember just missing out on a chance to fly its 747 from HNL to STL in 1988 and had to ride aboard AA's inferior DC-10 to Dallas instead. As to the other airline, I'd guess TransAmerica.

jlemon

I'll add a few operators to the list from Seat 2A under.....

Canadian Airlines

Nordair - CV 990, DC-8-52, DC-8 Super 71 (re-engined DC-8-61 series)
Pacific Western Airlines (PWA) - B707
Quebecair - B707, DC-8 Super 63
Transair - B707

BTW, I am unsure whether PWA ever operated their B767-275ER aircraft on transatlantic charters as I believe they primarily flew the type on scheduled domestic services in Canada.....


As for STL-HNL nonstop service, TWA is correct, of course, in view of their St. Louis hub at the time. The flight numbers for the daily STL-HNL nonstops were TW 1 and TW 2. When I lived in Honolulu and was working as the marketing director for an interisland carrier, the local TWA sales manager in HNL referred to his company's B747 flights to and from STL as being operated with a "real rattletrap of an airplane". Apparently, TWA's 747 equipment was a bit aged at that point.....

Later on, TWA flew STL-HNL daily with a B767-300 and also once a week on weekends with a B757-200. The 757 could not make the westbound trip from STL to HNL nonstop and had to make an intermediate stop (at LAX, I think) for fuel. However, TW 16, which was operated with a 757, did fly nonstop from HNL to STL according to the timetable at the time.

As for the rest of your answer, I do not believe that Transamerica (TV) flew nonstop between STL and HNL. At least, I cannot find any evidence of this. Referencing my above post, the TV flights stopped in DFW or in both DFW and LAX while en route between STL and HNL.

However, I do know of another U.S. airline that did fly nonstop between STL and HNL, so I'll leave this part of the question out there for a bit....

Wally Bird

jlemon

Whoops! I neglected to note we were confined to the year 1969 with regard to this question.....

WHBM

Transatlantic charters :

1969 was just an arbitrary year for these, but I believe the operators that year comprised :

From the UK :

Caledonian (the largest), 707s. Sometimes three or four a day from Gatwick in high season.
Laker, they had bought the two 707s, and the forward contracts, from British Eagle, who went out of business at the end of 1968.
British United, VC10s. yes, although they didn't do schedules to the US, BUA had a charter contract for a couple of summers from Gatwick to New York. Has anyone ever seen a photo of them there ?

From Canada :

Wardair, 707s and a 727, became the dominant charter operator to Canada.
Pacific Western, just one 707 but it showed up in Europe almost daily in summer.
CP Air, DC8s. The scheduled service licences from Canada to Europe were divided up by country, so Air Canada served the UK, France, Germany, etc, while CP Air served Spain, Netherlands, Italy, etc. However CP also developed a big charter operation to the places they weren't allowed to serve with schedules, this went through to their 747 era when they had dedicated charter-configured 747s that didn't appear on scheduled work.

From USA :

Standard, 707s. Standard came from Seattle, they turned up at Gatwick from time to time.
World, 707s
American Flyers, DC8s, and also 727s, they joined Wardair in operating 727s across the Atlantic.
Capitol, DC8s
Overseas National, DC8s
Saturn DC8s
Trans Caribbean, DC8s, the small New York to Puerto Rico operator also did many charters to Europe
Trans International, later Transamerica, DC8s
Universal, couple of DC8s.

Others :

Aer Lingus. They had a 707 fleet considerably larger than schedule requirements, and operated many charters from the UK to North America.

The dominance of the US operators changed within a few years, a whole slew of UK airlines bought secondhand 707s (particularly the old Pan Am aircraft), while the focus for the US operators changed. The US airlines also did a considerable amount of all-year work for the US military over to Germany (where you might see half a dozen aircraft in Frankfurt some mornings), and elsewhere in Europe, this had all sorts of unbalanced requirements and the commercial charters were a very good way of avoiding empty transatlantic legs. It was standard for the aircraft to do military work one way and commercial the other, doing positioning hops between them. The military work had allowed these relatively small airlines to get the finance for all the stretched DC8s they purchased, new, in quite a narrow timeframe, 1967-9.

Saturn (and a few others) did operate through Stansted, but also used Gatwick as well. Basically they went where the charterer wanted to go. All the above turned up occasionally at Manchester or Prestwick as well. You could also see the US carriers regularly come through the US Lakenheath Air Force Base, which is up beyond Cambridge, about 60 miles NE of London.

Invicta, another impoverished UK operator (there are plenty more to go !), did buy a couple of 720Bs in later years, didn't find a lot of work for them, I don't recall them crossing the Atlantic.

Modern were a significant operator of Convair 990s from West Berlin to the Mediterranean, but I don't believe they did any transatlantic work, the aircraft stayed in Europe permanently and went to Swissair in Zurich for major maintenance.

Well, that should all be good ground for a discussion !

Seat 2A

It's been a while since any questions have been posted and I had the morning free, so...

Since then I've been waiting for a time of day to post when many of us are typically on the internet, and as such will allow more of us to have a reasonable chance to answer at least a few of these questions. Good luck, all!

1. What was the first non-U.S. airline to launch a new Boeing aircraft? What kind of aircraft was it? ANSWERED

2. In 1973, which airline and aircraft provided nonstop service between Los Angeles and San Juan, PR? ANSWERED

3. This Midwestern airline ordered two 737-200C and one 737-200. Had it taken delivery of any of these aircraft (it never did), it would have been the first airline to operate the 737-200 Combi.

4. Which airline was instead the launch customer for the 737-200 Combi? ANSWERED

5. What was the first U.S. regional airline to inaugurate jet aircraft service? What kind of aircraft was it? ANSWERED

6. Which U.S. airline named its jets “Vista Jets”? ANSWERED

7. What was the first airline to order and operate the Boeing 747F (The first 747 built as a freighter from the beginning of its production) ANSWERED

8. At least three airlines have marketed their aircraft as “Starliners”. One was foreign and two of them American. Name the airlines and the aircraft so marketed.

9. Which U.S. Airline was known as the “Airline Of The Stars”? ANSWERED

10. What was the first U.S. airline to sell tickets on the web in 1995 and the first to introduce web check-in, in September 1999? ANSWERED

For you timetable aficionados, the following questions are based upon schedules from the October 15, 1981 OAG. I reckon any diligent OAG readers should be able to come up with a good guess if not the correct answer right off the top of their heads.

11. This was the only airline offering nonstop service between New Orleans and Cleveland.

12. This airline operated Martin 404s between Miami and Key West, Florida. ANSWERED

13. This airline operated the only daily nonstop 747 service between Washington Dulles and Chicago. ANSWERED

14. While two other airlines operated DC-9s on the 765 mile route between Houston and Mexico City, these two airlines offered 747 service. ANSWERED

15. Which two airlines provided the only nonstop jet service between Los Angeles and Fresno? ANSWERED

16. This airline provided once weekly nonstop jet service between Grand Junction and Los Angeles.

17. This airline offered nonstop single class service aboard a DC-10 between Honolulu and Los Angeles. ANSWERED

18. This airline operated daily nonstop DC-3 service between Tampa and Naples, Florida. ANSWERED

19. This airline operated one daily flight utilizing a single class DC-8-61 between Chicago and New York JFK?

20. Everyone knows that Northwest operated lots of flights from Minneapolis to all three New York airports. Only one other airline offered nonstop flights into any of the three New York airports. That airport was Newark. Name the airline. ANSWERED

21. This airline offered once weekly nonstop service between St. Kitts, Leeward Islands and New York JFK. Name the airline and the aircraft used on this route.

22. Name the four airlines that provided nonstop jet service between Denver and Phoenix. ANSWERED

23. This airline offered nonstop Fokker F28 service between Greensboro and Raleigh, NC. ANSWERED

24. This airline offered the only service between New York’s three airports and Utica, New York. Name the airline and the jet that it flew. ANSWERED

25. These two airlines operated daily nonstop Convair 580 service between Burbank and Lake Tahoe, CA. ANSWERED