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Old Nov 11, 2014, 2:41 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: Xyzzy
Where does the KVS tool get its data and is KVS authorized to provide this data in the manner it is presented?

The tool is known to access a variety of web sites, many in a manner that is not authorized. Please see the next section of this Wiki for a list of sites believed to be accessed and their data access policies (where known).

Additionally, under some conditions the tool appears to access sites via a KVS-operated back end. This means that the tool is not just a 'web browser' that runs via a user's machine. No detailed public information is available about how this works or whether any of this back-end access is authorized.

Websites KVS Accesses and their relevant Terms of Use

http://book.aircanada.com/pl/AConlin...verrideServlet
http://book.aircanada.com/pl/AConlin...PreviewServlet
https://book.aircanada.com/pl/AConli...verrideServlet
https://www.aircanada.com
Terms of Use:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/legal/notice.html
Use of our web site for any other purpose, including any commercial use or purpose, is expressly prohibited.
Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, you agree that, in using or accessing our website, you shall not commit or participate in any of the following acts or actions, each of which is expressly prohibited under this User Agreement:
directly or indirectly, use or access, or encourage, solicit, permit, facilitate, aid, assist or abet, including, but not limited to, the selling, licensing, distribution or provision to any person of any means that permit, the use or access, or agree to provide the use or access, of our website through any manual process or any automatic, electronic or technical device, including but not limited to automated scripts, robots, crawls, screen scrapers, web "bots", deep-links, indexes, spiders, click-spams, macro programs, or any other device, program, software, system, algorithm, methodology or technology, now known or hereinafter discovered, that performs the same or a similar function, in order to, without limitation: "data mine"; "screen scrape"; data process; access, extract, copy, distribute, aggregate or acquire information; generate impressions or clicks; input or store information; search or generate searches; or manipulate or monitor any portion or content of our website;

http://data.flight24.com/flights/
Terms of Use:
http://www.flightradar24.com/terms-and-conditions
Website’s information and Services are provided for personal, non-commercial use only. Permission is granted to temporarily download one copy of the materials (information or software) on Flightradar24’s web site for personal, non-commercial transitory viewing only. This is the grant of a license, not a transfer of title, and under this license you may not:

Modify or copy the materials;
Use the materials for any commercial purpose, or for any public display (commercial or non-commercial);
Attempt to decompile or reverse engineer any software contained on Flightradar24's web site;
Remove any copyright or other proprietary notations from the materials; or
Transfer the materials to another person or "mirror" the materials on any other server.

This license shall automatically terminate if you violate any of these restrictions and may be terminated by Flightradar24 at any time. Upon terminating your viewing of these materials or upon the termination of this license, you must destroy any downloaded materials in your possession whether in electronic or printed format.

http://data.seatexpert.com/tpi/find.php
Terms of Use:

http://plane.lan.com/cgi-bin/recibo_...bo_eticket.cgi
Terms of Use:
http://www.lan.com/en_us/sitio_perso...-use/about-us/
You may use the information on our site solely for non-commercial purposes, and any use or modification of the website contents is not permitted.

http://reservations.usairways.com/Default.aspx
Terms of Use:
http://reservations.usairways.com/en-US/aboutus/site_usage_policy.html
Content may be used for non-commercial personal use only, and you agree not to modify, copy, transmit, distribute, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, sell or otherwise transfer any information, software, products or services obtained from the Site without prior written permission from US Airways. You agree not to use any automatic device, manual process, or scraping to monitor or copy the Site or the content contained therein for any purpose without US Airways’ prior written permission. You agree not to use any device, software or routine to interfere with or attempt to interfere with the proper working of the Site or any activities conducted on the Site.

https://book.austrian.com/app/fb.fly
Terms of Use:
http://www.austrian.com/Info/LegalRegulations/WebsiteTerms.aspx?sc_lang=en&cc=AT
2. Proprietary rights
All trademark rights, copyrights, database rights and other intellectual property rights to the contents of the Austrian-website, (as well as the organization and layout of the website), together with the underlying software code rest, either with Austrian or with its licensors. You may not, either in whole or in part, copy, modify, distribute or use or reproduce in other form contents of the Austrian-website, or the underlying software code, without the prior written consent of Austrian.

3. Permissible use
All Austrian-website online services (including the booking machine) are provided solely for the purpose of enabling you to check the availability of goods or services relating to your journey (the timetable, for example), make legitimate reservations, use our online check-in or transact other business with suppliers. You may only use the website in accordance with these terms and conditions and for the legally permitted purposes described above. In particular, you indicate your agreement to the following:
...
3.5 You may not reproduce information from the Austrian-website for commercial purposes. This also includes providing prices for Austrian flights on another website or another online server. In particular you may not copy, distribute, in other way use or reproduce discarded content from the Austrian-website with the help of 'robots', other search machine technologies or through other automatic mechanisms.

https://booking.qatarairways.com/qri...Booking.action
Terms of Use:

https://book.tam.com.br/TAM/dyn/air/...ng/retrievePNR
Terms of Use:

https://classic.checkmytrip.com/plne...ievePNR.action
Terms of Use:
(D) not to use any automated system or software to extract data from the Application, Documents or Services for commercial purposes (such as screen scraping);

https://en.aegeanair.com
Terms of Use:

https://eservice.evaair.com
Terms of Use:

https://flymas.mobi/itravel/viewBooking.xhtml
Terms of Use:

https://fly.rj.com/MyBookings/Home/EN/Default.aspx
Terms of Use:

http://skyvector.com/airport/
Terms of Use:

https://m.aeroflot.ru/b/info/pnr/load
Terms of Use:

https://mm.alitalia.com/GB_EN/booking/apvsearch.aspx
Terms of Use:

https://mobile1.emirates.com/myb/review.xhtml
Terms of Use:

https://myb.s7.ru/getMyBooking.action
Terms of Use:

https://mytripandmore.com/Itinerary.aspx
Terms of Use:
https://mytripandmore.com/TermsAndConditions.aspx
Except as expressly permitted by these Terms, you may not:
...
9. use any "robot", "spider" or other automatic device, software, program, algorithm, routine, methodology, or any manual process or functionality:
...to monitor, assemble, analyse, index, copy, transmit, distribute, transfer, or link to any of the pages, data, materials, or content available on the Site,

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWe...yICAOAction.do
Terms of Use:

https://prefunds.aa.com/refunds/receipt
https://www.aa.com/reservation/findReservationSubmit.do
Terms of Use:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/footer/siteUsage.jsp
Intellectual property notifications
...
D. American Airlines owns or uses by permission all software contained on the Site, including without limitation all HTML code and Active X controls. Copyright and other laws and international treaty provisions protect this software. The law expressly prohibits any modification, redistribution, or reproduction of the software, and such actions could result in severe civil and criminal penalties. American Airlines will seek and support prosecuting violators to the maximum extent possible.
E. You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of the Site for public or commercial purposes. Nothing on the Site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise.
...
Limitations on your use:
You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:
...
L. Copy or create derivative works from, display, distribute, license, perform, publish, recreate, reproduce, sell, transfer, or transmit any information, products, services, or software obtained by, from, or through the Site.
M. Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.

https://raw.github.com/opentraveldat...i_airlines.csv
Terms of Use:

https://secure.jetairways.com/PlatformID/Identify.aspx
Terms of Use:

https://tickets.airtran.com/SeatAvailability.aspx
Terms of Use:
http://www.southwest.com/html/about-...ons/index.html
Prohibited Activities

You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of this site for public or commercial purposes without our express written permission. Nothing on this site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise.

You may not modify, re-render, frame, mirror, truncate, add to, inject, filter or change the order of the information contained on any page of the Southwest Airlines sites, including, without limitation, by any way of reproducing Southwest Airlines or SWABiz® web pages or Company information on any other web site without our express written permission.

You may not copy, derive, edit, translate, decompile, reverse engineer, modify, use, or reproduce any code or source relating to our sites, including without limitation, any service or product Southwest offers.

You may not cause to appear any pop-up, pop-under, exit windows, expanding buttons, banners advertisement, or anything else which minimizes, covers, or otherwise inhibits the full display of the Southwest Airlines sites.

You may not use any deep-link, page-scrape, robot, crawl, index, spider, click spam, macro programs, Internet agent, or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which does the same things, to use, access, copy, acquire information, generate impressions or clicks, input information, store information, search, generate searches, or monitor any portion of the Southwest Airlines sites or Company information.
...
You may not disguise the origin of information transmitted to, from, or through the Southwest Airlines sites. You may not circumvent any measures implemented by Southwest Airlines aimed at preventing violations of the Use Agreement. You may not violate the restrictions in any robot exclusion header.

When you use the Southwest Airlines sites or Company information for an authorized purpose, you must include all proprietary notices without changing, hiding or deleting them.

You may not engage in any conduct that is, or that Southwest Airlines deems to be, in violation of this Use Agreement.

https://wftc3.e-travel.com
Terms of Use:

https://wtrweb.worldtracer.aero/WorldTracerWeb/pax.do
Terms of Use:

https://www121.jal.co.jp/JmbWeb/JR/S...MileCalc_en.do
Terms of Use:

https://www4.thy.com/mybookings/ETDisplay.tk
https://www4.thy.com/mybookings/getPnr.tk
Terms of Use:

https://www.airberlin.com/en-DE/cockpit
Terms of Use:

https://www.airfrance.fr/cgi-bin/AF/...chPnrAction.do
Terms of Use:

https://www.alaskaair.com/booking/reservationlookup
Terms of Use:

https://www.bookonline.saudiairlines...verride.action
https://www.bookonline.saudiairlines...verride.action
Terms of Use:

https://www.britishairways.com/trave...g/public/en_gb
Terms of Use:

https://www.checkmytrip.com/CMTSERVLET
Terms of Use:
https://www.checkmytrip.com/cmt/apf/...&SITE=NCMTNCMT
3. Licence restrictions

3.1 Except as expressly set out in this EULA or as permitted by any local law, you agree:
...
(D) not to use any automated system or software to extract data from the Application, Documents or Services for commercial purposes (such as screen scraping);

https://www.delta.com/mytrips/findPnr.action
http://www.delta.com/ism/SeatMapDisplay.action
http://www.delta.com/shared/components/blank.jsp
Terms of Use:

https://www.finnair.com
Terms of Use:

https://www.flysas.com
Terms of Use:

https://www.iberia.com/web/retrievePNR.do
Terms of Use:

https://www.lot.com
Terms of Use:

https://www.lufthansa.com
Terms of Use:
http://www.lufthansa.com/online/port...d=2016866&l=en

2. Proprietary rights
...You may not, either in whole or in part, copy, modify, distribute or use or reproduce in other form contents of the Lufthansa-website, or the underlying software code, without the prior written consent of Deutsche Lufthansa AG.
https://www.routehappy.com/
Terms of Use:

https://www.swiss.com
Terms of Use:

https://www.tripforyou.net/t4u/PTopAction.do
Terms of Use:

https://www.tripple.jp
Terms of Use:

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...n/default.aspx
Terms of Use:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/legal.aspx This website is for the User's personal, noncommercial use only. User agrees not to modify, copy, alter, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from this website without United’s prior written permission. User agrees not to use any robot, spider, other automatic device, or manual process to monitor or copy this website or the content contained therein or for any other unauthorized purpose without United’s prior written permission. ... United reserves the right to investigate any illegal and/or unauthorized use of this website, including, but not limited to, unauthorized framing of this website or unauthorized use of any robot, spider or other automated device, and to take appropriate legal action, including, without limitation, civil, criminal and injunctive redress.

https://www.viewtrip.com/GetItin.aspx
Terms of Use:

https://www.virginamerica.com/book/ow/a1/
Terms of Use:

https://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/g...ndBooking.next
Terms of Use:

https://www.virtuallythere.com/new/reservations.html
Terms of Use:

http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/
Terms of Use:

http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi
Terms of Use:

http://www.airframes.org/fleet/
Terms of Use:

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_H...oking-now.html
Terms of Use:

http://www.flightradar24.com/
Terms of Use:

http://www.FlightStats.com/go/Flight...ingByFlight.do
http://www.FlightStats.com/go/Flight...tusByFlight.do
Terms of Use:

http://www.flightview.com/TravelTool...eryResults.asp
http://www.flightview.com/TravelTools/viewairport.asp
Terms of Use:

http://www.gcmap.com/airport/
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui
Terms of Use:
http://www.gcmap.com/faq/using
Q: May I use the Great Circle Mapper's maps on my web page?
A: You may use maps generated by the Great Circle Mapper on non-commercial web pages (q.v. commericial use below) so long as you do not profit from them and you include the following credit on pages which include maps:
...
Q: May I use the Great Circle Mapper's maps for commercial sites or publications?
A: Please write to Karl L. Swartz regarding terms for commercial use of the maps.

http://www.iata.org/about/members/Pa...line-list.aspx
Terms of Use:
http://www.iata.org/Pages/terms.aspx
2. Your Conduct

The content on this Site is for your personal use only within the organization or entity to which you are attached as applicable, and it is not intended for commercial exploitation unless expressly agreed in writing by IATA through a duly authorized representative. IATA authorizes you to download or reproduce selected materials at this Site only for your personal, non-commercial use, in the ordinary course of business provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original materials on any copies of the materials and that the title or database brand name and IATA name is stated as the source.

You may not otherwise modify, disassemble, create derivative works, distribute, reproduce, publicly display, perform, transmit, re-transmit, sell, rent, sublicense, or otherwise use any materials or content on this Site for commercial or non-commercial exploitation by yourself or the organization or entity to which you are attached or permit third parties to so do. Without limitation, unlimited or wholesale reproduction, copying of the content for commercial or non-commercial purposes and unwarranted modification of data and information within the content is not permitted, and any use of these materials on any other website or networked computer environment for any purpose without IATA’s prior written consent is prohibited.
...
4. Intellectual Property Rights

...You must not modify, decompile, or reverse engineer any software IATA discloses to you via this Site, and you must not remove, overprint, or deface any notice of copyright, trademark, logo, legend, or other notice of ownership from any originals or copies of software or information from the website. "IATA Trademarks" means all names, marks, brands, URL names or addresses, logos, designs, trade dress and other designations IATA uses in connection with Products or Services. You are not permitted to incorporate any IATA Trademarks into any other trademarks, service marks, company names, Internet addresses, domain names, or any other similar designations. Any unauthorized use of any materials contained on this website may violate copyright laws, trademark laws, the laws of privacy and publicity, and communications regulations and statutes.

http://www.itn.net/cgi/get
Terms of Use:

http://www.kenya-airways.com/kqbook.aspx
Terms of Use:

http://www.myairlines.ru
Terms of Use:

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/do/dyn/checkmytrip
Terms of Use:

http://www.seatexpert.com/multiple_results.php
Terms of Use:

http://www.seatguru.com/ajax/findseatmap.php
Terms of Use:

http://www.seatmaestro.com/airlines-...eckmytrip.html
http://www.seatmaestro.com/themes/de...te_airline.php
Terms of Use:

http://www.seatplans.com/ajax/Airline
http://www.seatplans.com/ajax/airports-and-city
http://www.seatplans.com/find-and-compare/
Terms of Use:
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KVS Availability Tool

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Old Oct 17, 2014, 4:15 pm
  #7231  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE100K, HH G
Posts: 2,454
KVS, I think at this point I'd really like to see an Availability/EF method -- allow me to sign up for (a legitimate account with) ExpertFlyer but continue using KVS. For those of use that are not so happy with the GTC scenario, this would give us another option, and one that we would be allowed to legitimately use.

Could you make this happen?
tomh009 is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 5:06 pm
  #7232  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE100K, HH G
Posts: 2,454
Originally Posted by tomh009
KVS, I think at this point I'd really like to see an Availability/EF method -- allow me to sign up for (a legitimate account with) ExpertFlyer but continue using KVS. For those of use that are not so happy with the GTC scenario, this would give us another option, and one that we would be allowed to legitimately use.

Could you make this happen?
Well, regardless of whether KVS is willing to do it or not, looks like EF wouldn't allow me to do it anyway. They are clearly watching this thread, and promptly sent me a PM:
Regarding your post in the KVS thread. So there is no confusion, we would never let KVS screen scrape from us (and yes we would be able to detect it) and any customer caught doing so will have their account terminated and subscription fee forfeited. Using automated or robotic tools to access ExpertFlyer is expressly prohibited in our Terms of Use.
Doesn't look like they want me as a paying ExpertFlyer customer, either.
tomh009 is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 5:42 pm
  #7233  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NE & SE Asia, N America
Programs: TG ROP Gold, Lifetime OZ Diamond Plus, BA Gold
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by gplates
Please note you are NOT using someone elses credentials. You will have to register for free on that specific site, they dont even confirm if your email is correct.
If it's legitimate, why all the secrecy? Even KVS hasn't made one peep about the legality of this or such after it was brought up in this thread, and they've responded after that to other points. Makes me think KVS suspects this method is not at all on the up-and-up.

I'm now wondering if flightstats.com took down their availability service simply because KVS was using it for free to gather their information, and in turn charge customers for the KVS interface. Nothing wrong in my mind if they did that, unless flightstats.com asked them to stop and they refused. Anyways, I have no idea if there was any sort of an arrangement or not between KVS and flightstats.com so don't want to make any assumptions here, but with the current secrecy, it does make one wonder.

Originally Posted by Red25
i was asked by kvs to remove the link they send by email ... very fishy

Yes indeed. Just one more bit that adds to making KVS's action look very suspicious. I'm not a KVS customer, nor plan to be, nor have anything against them making money off of designing software to gather free information. But it looks to me like their credibility is taking a huge hit here by their actions and secrecy.
A_Lee is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 5:47 pm
  #7234  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NE & SE Asia, N America
Programs: TG ROP Gold, Lifetime OZ Diamond Plus, BA Gold
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by tomh009
Well, regardless of whether KVS is willing to do it or not, looks like EF wouldn't allow me to do it anyway. They are clearly watching this thread, and promptly sent me a PM:


Doesn't look like they want me as a paying ExpertFlyer customer, either.
Based on ExpertFlyer's response you posted, there's nothing there that would stop me from being a customer of theirs, if that's the only way for me to get the availability information. And I don't know if KVS's policy was any different. If a KVS subscriber wrote some software and allowed a lot of people to use it for free which just ferried requests to KVS and returned the results, I imagine KVS would likely revoke their account, even though it seems that's really all KVS does to begin with, gathering information for free from other sources. Guess I'll need to ask ExpertFlyer how they gather their information, if they're willing to share. Though ultimately how they come about their information, provided it's done legally, doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother me if I sign up for a service with the agreement that it's for a sole individual's use, as long as it's spelled out ahead of time.

Edit: I just went and had a look at the flightstats.com thread and found EF's response there:
Originally Posted by ExpertFlyer Voice
That is correct. ExpertFlyer.com legitimately contracts and pays for our data, including Flight Availability, and is not and would not affected by the decisions of any other website. New users are welcome to try a 5-day free trial of our Premium service.
So if I'm not mistaken, EF paid to get the information directly and legally, whereas KVS looks to have been getting their information i an indirect manner, and possibly for free. Well, for me my choice will be perfectly clear if I need to decide between which service to use.
A_Lee is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:25 pm
  #7235  
KVS
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,949
Arrow

Originally Posted by A_Lee
I'm not a KVS customer, nor plan to be, nor have anything against them making money off of designing software to gather free information. But it looks to me like their credibility is taking a huge hit here by their actions and secrecy.
Our immediate priority lies with providing assistance to our Members during this Engine transition period, not engaging in speculative discussions.

As always, we remain open to answering specific questions regarding the KVS Tool itself and its functions.
KVS is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:35 pm
  #7236  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Melbourne, Aus
Programs: TG*G VA Plat
Posts: 272
KVS,
After much screwing around I managed to sign up for an account on the Florida Atlantic website. Surely this isn't right - you're asking people to pay you a substantial amount of money for a subscription to your product and then directing them to sign up to a 3rd party with little to no direct information on how to - just a bunch of cryptic instructions.

As I say, I've managed to sign up to this Florida Atlantic website version of getthere. But there is no further instructions on how this interacts with the KVS tool itself? KVS Asks for a sitecode. What the hell is the sitecode??

This system really does smell bad. If your product can no longer do what it advertises then you need to be upfront about it and tell people whats going on so they can make educated decisions.

I think you owe us long term subscribers a real explanation.

Airbumps
Airbumps is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:44 pm
  #7237  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NE & SE Asia, N America
Programs: TG ROP Gold, Lifetime OZ Diamond Plus, BA Gold
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by KVS
Our immediate priority lies with providing assistance to our Members during this Engine transition period, not engaging in speculative discussions.
Really? Then why not just post the information here in public? Numerous people have mentioned not getting the email. And why spending time from your busy transition period to email a customer and ask them to remove a link? Absolutely makes no sense. Sounds to me like just an excuse for trying to cover up some less than legitimate activity.
A_Lee is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:44 pm
  #7238  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE100K, HH G
Posts: 2,454
Originally Posted by A_Lee
Based on ExpertFlyer's response you posted, there's nothing there that would stop me from being a customer of theirs, if that's the only way for me to get the availability information. And I don't know if KVS's policy was any different. If a KVS subscriber wrote some software and allowed a lot of people to use it for free (...)

So if I'm not mistaken, EF paid to get the information directly and legally, whereas KVS looks to have been getting their information i an indirect manner, and possibly for free. Well, for me my choice will be perfectly clear if I need to decide between which service to use.
I didn't suggest a lot of people using EF for free. I suggested that I would like to pay for an EF subscription, and use KVS as my user interface. Just like email services allow me to choose my mail client. But EF clearly won't allow anyone to choose their own UI. If they did, I expect they would pick up a lot of existing KVS subscribers.

Not thrilled by either of the available options at the moment.
tomh009 is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:50 pm
  #7239  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NE & SE Asia, N America
Programs: TG ROP Gold, Lifetime OZ Diamond Plus, BA Gold
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by Airbumps
KVS,
After much screwing around I managed to sign up for an account on the Florida Atlantic website. Surely this isn't right - you're asking people to pay you a substantial amount of money for a subscription to your product and then directing them to sign up to a 3rd party with little to no direct information on how to - just a bunch of cryptic instructions.
In case any non-KVS customers are wondering, just by piecing together what's been posted here, if one does a google search for:

fau "getthere"
The first link returned is as follows:

http://www.fau.edu/controller/travel...ence_Guide.pdf

In there you will see the university's instructions for how to sign up. Does not at all look like something designed for general use. KVS, unless you were given specific permission from FAU to use this, and give it out to your customers, this is not at all cool.

Perhaps it's time someone sends some emails to FAU, marathon travel, and Sabre, to see what the real deal is, because obviously KVS wants to keep it all a big secret.
A_Lee is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 6:52 pm
  #7240  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NE & SE Asia, N America
Programs: TG ROP Gold, Lifetime OZ Diamond Plus, BA Gold
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by tomh009
I didn't suggest a lot of people using EF for free. I suggested that I would like to pay for an EF subscription, and use KVS as my user interface. Just like email services allow me to choose my mail client. But EF clearly won't allow anyone to choose their own UI. If they did, I expect they would pick up a lot of existing KVS subscribers.

Not thrilled by either of the available options at the moment.
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. I'd agree that if they allowed just a KVS or other third-party interface to their information, for a single user, it would be useful to some people.
A_Lee is offline  
Old Oct 17, 2014, 7:56 pm
  #7241  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YYZ, but my heart is in Asia
Programs: AC-SE, CX-DM, DL-G, Hyatt-DM, Hilton-DM, Fairmont-Plt, Marriott-S, Accor-Plt, SPG-G, IHG-Plt
Posts: 4,396
Originally Posted by tomh009
KVS, I think at this point I'd really like to see an Availability/EF method -- allow me to sign up for (a legitimate account with) ExpertFlyer but continue using KVS. For those of use that are not so happy with the GTC scenario, this would give us another option, and one that we would be allowed to legitimately use.

Could you make this happen?
Originally Posted by A_Lee
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. I'd agree that if they allowed just a KVS or other third-party interface to their information, for a single user, it would be useful to some people.
And that was exactly what I posted upthread.
Originally Posted by jarusoba
KVS has been a very useful tool to me. While I could get everything that KVS can provide via other free websites, I still prefer KVS because of the convenience, and the standalone small application. This is much better than ExpertFlyer which one has to enter all the fields every time the website is pulled up.

However, now that KVS cannot scrape info from FlightStats, maybe KVS should consider scraping info from Expert-Flyer. I don't mind paying a subscription for both Expert-Flyer and KVS but enjoy a much better interface.
And ExpertFlyer immediately sent me a PM stating this is not allowed.

I MUCH prefer the KVS interface despite the fact that I prefer to have a legitimate (paid or not) data source. So I suggested to ExpertFlyer that they write a similar app as KVS and I would consider switching. Also, the internet speed in my area is not that great. KVS app lets me switch search parameters very quickly while EF would require an access to the internet every time I key in a parameter or retrieve saved parameters. With a slow connection, even 0.5 second every time I retrieve a parameter is a pain in the as.s to me. That's the main reason I prefer KVS. And that's why I don't like anything web-based.

There is nothing wrong IMO what KVS is doing, except KVS should market itself as a scraper instead of a data provider. Everything KVS offers can be done though other FREE websites. I pay for KVS only because of the convenience, not because of the data it provides.

The GTC thing is just another website that KVS can scrape from. KVS commits no fault by pointing to us how to be crooks ourselves (if using GTC credentials in an unauthorized way constitutes being a crook that is). We are the one being the crooks, not KVS. Whether we want to use its service or not is OUR choice. So if you think this is immoral, DON'T do it! Just stop using KVS. If you're like me, feeling no guilt of using GTC credentials, by all means continue to use KVS to scrape the info.

Last edited by jarusoba; Oct 17, 2014 at 9:12 pm Reason: changing the spelling of a s s to avoid being blocked out
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 1:28 am
  #7242  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,223
Originally Posted by jarusoba
And that was exactly what I posted upthread.
There is nothing wrong IMO what KVS is doing, except KVS should market itself as a scraper instead of a data provider. Everything KVS offers can be done though other FREE websites. I pay for KVS only because of the convenience, not because of the data it provides.

The GTC thing is just another website that KVS can scrape from. KVS commits no fault by pointing to us how to be crooks ourselves (if using GTC credentials in an unauthorized way constitutes being a crook that is). We are the one being the crooks, not KVS. Whether we want to use its service or not is OUR choice. So if you think this is immoral, DON'T do it! Just stop using KVS. If you're like me, feeling no guilt of using GTC credentials, by all means continue to use KVS to scrape the info.
+1

We are paying KVS for a tool he has made (hence the name KVS Tool!), not for being a source of data.
He is pointing us to sources of data which are available for his tool.
And it is up to us if we use them or not.
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 2:11 am
  #7243  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Originally Posted by lewinr
+1

We are paying KVS for a tool he has made (hence the name KVS Tool!), not for being a source of data.
He is pointing us to sources of data which are available for his tool.
And it is up to us if we use them or not.
I disagree. While it's called a tool, it's really not, or at least that's not how it's marketed. It's marketed as a service, and one which you must pay a subscription to use. Thus it's being marketed as a solution, and even though they're not supplying the data directly, it seems to me that it's implied that you will have access to the data they say with your subscription.

If it was just a tool, you'd expect them to sell it for a fixed cost, and then you're free to use it for your lifetime, or the lifetime that's it's useful, ie., data is available for it to use. And if it stops functioning as you expect, then you need to upgrade your tool, perhaps for some cost, or perhaps for free, depending on the software vendor's policies.

As to whether or not KVS is doing anything wrong by providing links to get access to an account which to me doesn't look like it was meant to be used by the public, I'll leave that for each individual to decide in their own mind, based on their individual sense of right/wrong. But if KVS felt there was nothing wrong with their actions, then why the need for secrecy and providing a google link? Why not just simply provide the account name/password directly and state clearly that it's up to the user to decide whether they want to use that information to make their own account? Would have been much simpler for the users. Without seeing their actual email, it sounds to me that the way they've done it, many users may not even realize that they're doing something of very questionable ethics/legality. Nor may they realize that if someone decides to revoke these newly created accounts, they will once again be without any data source and stuck with a tool which serves them no purpose, or at least not the full functionality which they thought they would get with it.

For those who purchased subscriptions and realized it's just a tool without any guarantee of data, fine, and I hope your happy. But I imagine they likely have a lot of customers who felt their subscription was a service, and now suddenly that service has been severely restricted, unless you want to register accounts/engage in activity that you may not be authorized to.
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 2:32 am
  #7244  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,223
Claiming that it must be a service because it is sold as a subscription and not with one-off payment is spurious.

Plenty of software products are sold with both models... for example MS Word and Excel can be bought using either a single payment or a subscription. Using the subscription model does not alter the product which is exactly the same product you get if you buy a perpetual license. (Although buying the subscription does entitle you to ongoing upgrades... it is also possible to get those with a perpetual license + an annual support agreement.)
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 2:41 am
  #7245  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Posts: 3
Exclamation

I use KVS to post availability on flights mostly to Florida which I have been doing for a few years, I did get a request from KVS a while ago to include "KVS Availability Tool" in all my posts which I gladly done so I'm a little upset as I've supported the tool for a few years I have asked for details of how to keep using it but I'm confused about the replies
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