Consolidated "Airbus 380 - problems and discontinuation" thread
#196
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EK like to have a very young fleet (I think the average age is around 6 years at the moment) - with Airbus not supporting the A380, EK might have a problem with values in the secondary market causing them to take a bigger than expected write down in the asset value when it comes to their scheduled replacement. Later A380s operated by EK have shifted this problem onto lessors and investors though, but it's still going to be a hit for their balance sheet.
Unfortunately for EK, they are probably the only operator with the cost base and route network to make the plane actually regularly profitable - whether Airbus are going to build a plane just for one customer...well...!
Unfortunately for EK, they are probably the only operator with the cost base and route network to make the plane actually regularly profitable - whether Airbus are going to build a plane just for one customer...well...!
I would be shocked if they stopped production because there is certainly a place for the plane and it seems like they can make a marginal profit on each one.
Yeah, the program as a whole may have been a bad decision, but it's a sunk cost unless they can somehow get money for un-developing the plane. The question is how they take the loss, but it seems silly to scrap the whole program over what is essentially an accounting issue. That said, I'm sure they are much more well informed than I and this is all wild speculation.
#197
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#198
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The advantage of boarding both decks simultaneously - 3 air bridges, one for the top deck, and then one for each side of the bottom deck, but of course, this requires terminal investment, which, if the A380 is going to disappear, may not spread to further airports!
#199
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Honestly though, competition with Boeing is the only reason Airbus developed the 380 in the first place. Boeing has dominated the super jumbo market for decades with the 747 and Airbus had plane envy. Like most European automakers nowadays, Airbus thought they needed a plane in every size to have a comparable portfolio.
Unfortunately for Airbus, they read the market wrong. The 380 may "have a place in the market" but I think the current super jumbo market tell us that place could very well be served by ONE plane. Boeing's benefit is that the 747 was developed so long ago and has been paid back so many times over that marginal upgrades to the 747 don't cost much and can be quickly repaid at a much lower break even. Basically, Boeing can afford to keep the 747 in the portfolio much cheaper than Airbus can the 380.
And I think Airbus is finally realizing that fact . . . flown on it many times, it's nice enough. End of the day though, they're all still tubes with wings. Until there's some step change or paradigm shift in aircraft design the experience will be pretty much the same to me.
Unfortunately for Airbus, they read the market wrong. The 380 may "have a place in the market" but I think the current super jumbo market tell us that place could very well be served by ONE plane. Boeing's benefit is that the 747 was developed so long ago and has been paid back so many times over that marginal upgrades to the 747 don't cost much and can be quickly repaid at a much lower break even. Basically, Boeing can afford to keep the 747 in the portfolio much cheaper than Airbus can the 380.
And I think Airbus is finally realizing that fact . . . flown on it many times, it's nice enough. End of the day though, they're all still tubes with wings. Until there's some step change or paradigm shift in aircraft design the experience will be pretty much the same to me.
#200
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Everyone has their bad days.
The 747-8, on its own, is a commercial disaster with virtually no passenger versions and limited cargo interest. The only lifeline the production line (running at I believe less than 1.5 planes per month) has is a possible selection by the US Air Force as a replacement for the VC-25s, which are now 25 years old.
The 747-8, on its own, is a commercial disaster with virtually no passenger versions and limited cargo interest. The only lifeline the production line (running at I believe less than 1.5 planes per month) has is a possible selection by the US Air Force as a replacement for the VC-25s, which are now 25 years old.
#201
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Y(Open a plastic water bottle at cruise altitude. Drink about half the water. Seal the bottle. Look at it after landing. It will be about half-crushed, because of the lower pressurization at altitude. I do this on just about every flight, just for the fun of it. Except on the 787, it didn't crush!)
...
I was a bit surprised on one thing. The airplane actually seemed smaller than I expected it to be.
...
I was a bit surprised on one thing. The airplane actually seemed smaller than I expected it to be.
As for seeming smaller, remember that in terms of fuselage size it is sort of a cross between the 767 and 777, where Boeing wanted a more efficient plane to replace the 767 (16.5' width, 8 across coach seating), but have similar missions closer to a 777 (19.3' width, 9 across..sometimes 10..seating). The 787 fuselage with an 18.9' width and 9 across seating, along with the composite construction, among other things, made that possible.
#202
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Honestly though, competition with Boeing is the only reason Airbus developed the 380 in the first place. Boeing has dominated the super jumbo market for decades with the 747 and Airbus had plane envy. Like most European automakers nowadays, Airbus thought they needed a plane in every size to have a comparable portfolio.
Unfortunately for Airbus, they read the market wrong. The 380 may "have a place in the market" but I think the current super jumbo market tell us that place could very well be served by ONE plane. Boeing's benefit is that the 747 was developed so long ago and has been paid back so many times over that marginal upgrades to the 747 don't cost much and can be quickly repaid at a much lower break even. Basically, Boeing can afford to keep the 747 in the portfolio much cheaper than Airbus can the 380.
And I think Airbus is finally realizing that fact . . . flown on it many times, it's nice enough. End of the day though, they're all still tubes with wings. Until there's some step change or paradigm shift in aircraft design the experience will be pretty much the same to me.
Unfortunately for Airbus, they read the market wrong. The 380 may "have a place in the market" but I think the current super jumbo market tell us that place could very well be served by ONE plane. Boeing's benefit is that the 747 was developed so long ago and has been paid back so many times over that marginal upgrades to the 747 don't cost much and can be quickly repaid at a much lower break even. Basically, Boeing can afford to keep the 747 in the portfolio much cheaper than Airbus can the 380.
And I think Airbus is finally realizing that fact . . . flown on it many times, it's nice enough. End of the day though, they're all still tubes with wings. Until there's some step change or paradigm shift in aircraft design the experience will be pretty much the same to me.
It's all about the 777 next gen now.
#203
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Everyone has their bad days.
The 747-8, on its own, is a commercial disaster with virtually no passenger versions and limited cargo interest. The only lifeline the production line (running at I believe less than 1.5 planes per month) has is a possible selection by the US Air Force as a replacement for the VC-25s, which are now 25 years old.
The 747-8, on its own, is a commercial disaster with virtually no passenger versions and limited cargo interest. The only lifeline the production line (running at I believe less than 1.5 planes per month) has is a possible selection by the US Air Force as a replacement for the VC-25s, which are now 25 years old.
Keep in mind that part of the reason for the 747-8 to exist was to deny market share to the A380. Boeing knows the VLA market is small and even stealing a fairly modest number of orders from Airbus would justify the 747-8s existence. Even the very small numbers of 747-8 orders that KE, LH and CA have placed would have represented an additional year+ of production of the A380.
#204
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Airbus should have put more effort into their short and medium-haul products. THAT'S where a huge market will exist in the coming years. But they wasted so much money on the 380 and other stupid products (the 340 comes to mind) that they neglected to advance their 319-320-321 line, while Boeing was making advances on the world's workhorse, the 737.
#205
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While the 747-8 is certainly a failure, the money invested is a pittance compared to what Airbus spent on the A380.
Keep in mind that part of the reason for the 747-8 to exist was to deny market share to the A380. Boeing knows the VLA market is small and even stealing a fairly modest number of orders from Airbus would justify the 747-8s existence. Even the very small numbers of 747-8 orders that KE, LH and CA have placed would have represented an additional year+ of production of the A380.
Keep in mind that part of the reason for the 747-8 to exist was to deny market share to the A380. Boeing knows the VLA market is small and even stealing a fairly modest number of orders from Airbus would justify the 747-8s existence. Even the very small numbers of 747-8 orders that KE, LH and CA have placed would have represented an additional year+ of production of the A380.
#206
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...placement.html
#207
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The A380 for me is an interesting novelty, because of its size, the double deck boarding and the ways that some premium carriers have tricked it out — Emirates with showers, Singapore with FirstSuites, Ethiad with 'The Residence' and Korean with the lounge. But over time those premium features may evaporate, as the airlines that have them are pressured to get more revenue out of the plane. Remember back when Pan Am launched the 747 in 1969, a big feature was the sit down dining room upstairs for first class. Continental once had lounges on its DC10's, but they were ditched in favor of seats. The gulf carriers may stick with a super premium product up front (or up top), but not so sure with other airlines.
U.S. carriers probably haven't jumped on the A380 because they have a different business model than the gulf carriers or premium Asian carriers. U.S. carriers aren't looking to compete in the super premium space, and don't want to devote an inch of space to anything that won't generate revenue. The Big 3 have a pretty good understanding of the business market that wants lie flat seats with direct aisle access in business class, schedule frequency and inflight connectivity. No Krug champagne or caviar and no super premium lounges or first class terminals. They also deal with a sophisticated managed travel market, with corporate contracts and travel policies that limit if not outright prohibit first class international travel. Large U.S. companies won't pay for Krug champagne and caviar outside of entertainment and finance, so they probably don't see the need for a super jumbo they can trick out in a super premium configuration.
U.S. carriers probably haven't jumped on the A380 because they have a different business model than the gulf carriers or premium Asian carriers. U.S. carriers aren't looking to compete in the super premium space, and don't want to devote an inch of space to anything that won't generate revenue. The Big 3 have a pretty good understanding of the business market that wants lie flat seats with direct aisle access in business class, schedule frequency and inflight connectivity. No Krug champagne or caviar and no super premium lounges or first class terminals. They also deal with a sophisticated managed travel market, with corporate contracts and travel policies that limit if not outright prohibit first class international travel. Large U.S. companies won't pay for Krug champagne and caviar outside of entertainment and finance, so they probably don't see the need for a super jumbo they can trick out in a super premium configuration.
#208
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That's odd. The 787 cabin is pressurized to 6000 feet MSL. Other planes are 8000 feet. The bottle should still compress.
As for seeming smaller, remember that in terms of fuselage size it is sort of a cross between the 767 and 777, where Boeing wanted a more efficient plane to replace the 767 (16.5' width, 8 across coach seating), but have similar missions closer to a 777 (19.3' width, 9 across..sometimes 10..seating). The 787 fuselage with an 18.9' width and 9 across seating, along with the composite construction, among other things, made that possible.
As for seeming smaller, remember that in terms of fuselage size it is sort of a cross between the 767 and 777, where Boeing wanted a more efficient plane to replace the 767 (16.5' width, 8 across coach seating), but have similar missions closer to a 777 (19.3' width, 9 across..sometimes 10..seating). The 787 fuselage with an 18.9' width and 9 across seating, along with the composite construction, among other things, made that possible.
#209
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Airbus to build A380neo and A380 'stretch'...
http://www.ausbt.com.au/airbus-confi...d-a380-stretch
Airbus CEO Fabrice Bregier has confirmed plans for an A380neo with more fuel-efficient engines as well as a longer version of the superjumbo – dubbed the A380-900 – capable of carrying even more passengers than today's double-decker jet.....
Airbus CEO Fabrice Bregier has confirmed plans for an A380neo with more fuel-efficient engines as well as a longer version of the superjumbo – dubbed the A380-900 – capable of carrying even more passengers than today's double-decker jet.....
#210
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Preference for Boeing?
Airlines are one of the most mercenary, capitalist businesses in the world (second only to banks). No airline buys a plane based on "preference". I can tell you from years in the industry it is a very mercenary decision, and the value of an aircraft is considered through it's lifetime and beyond (resale, etc.).
As for gauging success based on unpopularity in the US-- I guess the Il-96 was a runaway hit, since US Airlines never bought one of those, either.
It's great you love the A380, it's a great aircraft, but don't abandon logic because you feel like there's some weird anti-Airbus sentiment in the US.