You bet :) there are other FT'ers who would find a gaming forum helpful and actively participate.

As baccarat_king and mbstone indicated, it is in our blood to collect loyalty points and with many gaming destinations consolidating their loyalty programs it would be nice to have one central forum to review and compare programs and share experiences.

I do find the point NickB made pretty striking - there are a number of pastimes which could also make the same kind of arguments being made in this thread (skiing, safari/wildlife, hunting for example) and yet I'd hate to see FT going down that route, as it would mean destination information being spread across different fora and much more difficult to locate. In addition, for me there is the Religious Traveller's problem. I can no longer support fora which I am not sure will be successful. So I'm doubtful about this as an idea I'm afraid.

The biggest difference, is the ability to earn points. As far as I know, you don't accumulate points [at least in a FFB program sense] or discuss the accumulation of points in any of the other venues mentioned (Religious Traveller's, skiing, wildlife, hunting). Another similarity, is that these programs also have tier levels (gold, platinum, diamond) that are very similar to the type of levels offered by airline and hotel programs.

Most gaming destination travelers are focused on the comp (point) earning frequent player (guest) programs (such as Harrah's Total Rewards). These programs are a hugh part gaming travel, as the accumulation of points (or base/tier credits) at one property (say Las Vegas) can allow for free hotel stays (lounge access, free shows) at properties in other destinations (for example, Lake Tahoe). (Actually, you can even use your Harrah's points for free airfare)

While I think that there would not be enough interest to break these programs down into their own forums (and keeping them together is a plus, in my opinion), based on some of the [very thoughtful] feedback; and trying to keep the focus on miles & points, I would suggest that the forum be branded as :

Worldwide Gaming and Casino Frequent Customer (Player) Reward (Comp) Programs

For reference, a link to one of the most established programs, Harrah's Total Rewards.

A great example, of a long time thread in the Vegas Forum that deals with some of these issues, is the long running comp thread.

Another example, has some discussion of changes to the qualification of Diamond Tier in the Harrah's Total Rewards Program.

I like the idea in light of the expansion of gaming in other parts of the US and the rise of Macau.

One thing I've noticed too is that Vegas forum threads often go offtopic from the typical "where should I..." comments to about how Atlantic City is a destination now, the rise of Macau/Asia etc.. Singapore has some casinos on the blocks, Thailand is looking at partners, Japan's latent beaucracy has debated turning Odaiba, off the Tokyo coast into a "gambling town" area as well.

That's just Asia. "Video Lottery" terminals are now opening in Mexico as well, a place that hasn't had any gaming aside from sports in 60 years. Panama, Costa Rica, Argentina and Colombia all have casinos.

This is a big market.

I would definitely go for this. Gaming destinations have a special characteristic applicable to FlyerTalkers: the ability to garner bargains based on loyalty points, offers, and smart gambling that other types of destinations do not share.

There has been plenty of discussion, for instance, of how to maximize value from Harrah's Total Rewards program. This is not a Vegas-specific thing and it is definitely in the philosophy of FlyerTalk to share information about how to benefit from these programs.

One more thumb up!

QL

Great to see QuietLion here. ^

Some of you might not know, but gambling has been a massive growth industry in Australia since governments realised its worth as a cash cow.

The corporatisation of gambling here means there are a few big players (one being run by the Packer $cion on a multinational level) here. Crown is a major gaming destination accessible to serious gamblers from Asia and there seem to be some big-$ tournaments here.

I believe Randy Petersen was a hotel guest at the Crown last year (great hotel, btw) in Melbourne. :)

For any serious gambler travelling to Asia and Australia/NZ, there is a lot of potential for discussion of points and miles for an Australia/NZ trip, PLUS discussion of the comps and benefits of Crown and other groups.

I qualify this idea with this thought: will it reduce discussion in the regional destination fora? I will need to investigate this.

I give it a qualified ^.
I still believe award-winning (Freddie winner!) airlines with a growth story should be given preference for a new forum, but I guess that also comes back to (a) support for a forum and (b) miles and points opportunities. :)

Exactly and I'll throw in golfing, which is also very big business indeed. If gaming, why not golfing? Or skiing? Or running? Or, or, or...

Does golfing, or skiing, or running have any large global loyalty points program, similar to Total Rewards? Which currently, IIRC, has over 10 million members.

"Gaming Travel" is as much about earning points (and using points) as any other travel related loyalty program.

tcook052, since "points" would be a hugh aspect of this new forum, I suggested :

So, my assumption, is that I now have your (and others with concern about staying on focus with limiting forums to topics that are related to miles&points) support. ;)

I do fully understand your point about how big a business gaming and gaming rewards programs are, trust me, but I am of the opinion it's a slippery slope to start breaking FT down into ever smaller pools of interest based solely on demographics, special interests or activities.

For me that would be a correct assumption.

i have to say i'm leaning toward a "no" vote
 

Serious gamblers and comp hustlers are not "under" served. They
prefer to share and circulate information privately, with people who are equally willing to provide high quality profitable information. There is absolutely no benefit, and much harm, with posting such information in public. I've even heard jokes to the effect that Harrah's likes to look around, find out what makes gamblers happy, and remove those programs. In any case, unlike with miles earning programs, when we play the casino game, we are not just taking money out of the casino, we are competing with each other for limited space at the high profit table, machine, or weak casino.

I will give an example from early 1990s Biloxi. A friend found a mistake on a new table game. The mistake was on one bet, on one table, on one casino. He had an EV of about $300 a day, and for awhile he and his friend were playing the game every day under the radar for profit. Then he made the terrible error of selling the information for $50 and bragging rights. The next night, the table (which had a max bet of $500) was packed with high stakes gamblers who had flown in just to play that game. My friend could not even get a seat. The table lost six figures in less than 24 hours and was shut down, removed forever, for everyone. I myself have been part of teams that played 2 to 1 blackjack promotions until the casino in question broke down and ended the promotion early to stop the bleeding. I myself have been part of teams that played positive-EV machines until the casino management gave up and came out and turned the machines off until they could be re-programmed. There are teams attacking weak casinos and weak casino promotions that I'm aware of right now. These teams have put a lot of work into finding and attacking the promotions. I can't see any ethical, logical, or common sensible argument to be made for sharing these promotions with the general public that has done not much more than read a website and buy some cards from Bob Dancer.


Baccarat King in particular: Do you really win by sharing this type of information in public? I realize that you're trying to help the community here, but in my humble opinion, while you might help some individual a little bit, here is the more likely result: The teams will attack any big information you find (assuming they don't know it already), and, in all cases, you are creating new competitors for the limited amount of money that exists in these comp and promotion pools. Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, casinos including Harrah's will invest only so much into a promotion before they see that it's a loser. Harrah's because of its size is one of the most studied programs there is, and they're well aware of this. Although I'll admit to a good horse laugh the time that a team member in the late 1990s actually got one of the Harrah's casinos to go so far as to order him custom-made trousers to go with all of the many, many, many Harrah's shirts he'd accumulated.

As far as the high stakes gambler who has a negative expectation, he can just ask all these questions of his host about what he's entitled to, and if he doesn't like the answer, he can phone their competitors with his gambling history. So I don't quite see the value of a separate forum for this on flyertalk, seems the usual comp and host discussions in the Vegas thread work just as well. The prinicple would be the same everywhere, wouldn't it, except in destinations where serious comps aren't allowed, like London. I'll say that shopping sprees seem to be a big fad promotion at the moment, but you don't have to ask, they come in the mail of their own accord.

peachfront; I do appreciate your perspective, and have always appreciated your rise to fame, through the Gulf Coast casinos, IIRC.

I do agree that the US Market is quite well served, and that there are numerous boards (mostly paid and private) that provide +EV details, for those who desire them.

I also agree, that giving up too much detail, about a quirk (or an offer) can often hurt the positive (or slightly positive) EV situation. If this board did come to life, my first post would be to "caution" folks about sharing "too much."

Quite frankly, my main purpose for the creation of this forum, is to bring to life GLOBAL COVERAGE (in a more general sense --- not just, let's say, Blackjack conditions around the world) of the gaming and comp scene.

While I'm happy to share some knowledge, with regard to US Domestic gaming programs --- I would love to learn more about international and worldwide gaming programs and opportunities. I also wish to stress, especially to the TalkBoard that this "international coverage" would be unprecedented and is under-served by other internet bulletin boards, AFAIK.

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I think it is time for someone to make a motion on this one...