Voting Complete - Motion Passed: Creation of a Gaming Loyalty Program forum
 

I'm uncertain if this has already been brought up, but I would love to see a forum for "Gaming Travel Destinations - NOT Las Vegas."

Over the past 10 years, gaming (I sort of hate that term, and really prefer "gambling" --- but, it makes the casino folks happy to use a "less-evil" term. ;);) ) has really picked up at a number of destinations throughout the world.

While, I do understand, that there would most certainly be overlap; such as posting in the New England forum when talking about Foxwoods or Atlantic City, it is imperative for gaming information to be consolidated in order to understand (and discuss) the best opportunities available to players (and travelers).

I have personally delved into comparisons of comp offers at Harrah's properties at different geographic locations. For those interested in maximizing their gambling dollar (and to potentially pick-up an otherwise free or reduced hotel stay in a location they never thought of), you need to be able to openly discuss "gaming travel" much in the same way "budget travel" folks like to discuss budget ideas around the globe.

Who knows, somebody who is interested in snowboarding in Tahoe, might not realize that their membership in Harrah's Total Rewards (and their play in Atlantic City, Tunica, Phoenix market, or Indiana) might provide eligibility for a comp at Harrah's Tahoe.

This would also be a great place to post details (and discuss) about junket (inclusive charter flight and hotel offers) to gaming destinations for those interested in visiting a new place, based on the fact that gambling is available.

One final thought, is the ability to have a forum to discuss the casino comp and theoretical requirements for the different major casino properties throughout the world.

Cheers!
--- Michael

edit to add : I suggest a thread title change (5 June) to reflect discussion, and a focus on Miles&Points.

As someone with a love for gambling (well, others may call it a problem - I call it a solution! ;)), I like this idea from a personal perspective.

However, I as a TalkBoard member, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a large demand for gambling related destinations within FlyerTalk & this sounds more like a gamers forum than a travelers forum idea.

Well, I would argue that if the FlyerTalk community is a subset of the larger population, then gambling travel destinations would be of a lot of interest. Though, FlyerTalk is a unique mix, so I could be wrong.

Concerning a "gamers forum" more than a "travelers forum" --- I would have to argue (and possibly disagree) that a gambling destination forum wouldn't bring out that much more "off-topic" response than any of the other special interest forums.

For example (and this is totally a random example) is a $100 haircut thread that much more "off-topic" in the Women Travelers Forum than discussing Comps and Theoretical for Baccarat in the Gambling Destination forum (in addition to travel and hotel deals)?

BTW, I've never spent more than $75 on a haircut. :p:p

And, yes, most certainly, gambling is a solution NOT a problem. ;)

I'll pay on this! :)
I enjoy reading about what some FTers get up to in the name of gambling trips. I very rarely move from observer to bankroll-burner but these posts are a good read, from an entertainment perspective.

Is this proposal restricted to US gaming? If so, could a thread exist (even an index thread to link news and trip reports) as a resource in a USA forum?
I'd be interested in seeing relevant threads linked together somehow, regardless of whether this idea becomes a motion that is voted on.

From a non-USA perspective, I would like to see similar indexes or collections of info for Macau and Australia ;) (even though in most cases the threads belong and would stay in the destination forum).

For the benefit of TB, what destinations would be included in this proposal?
Is it limited to N. America / Carribean?
If it is limited to this region, could the proposal be amended to "NA gaming destinations NOT Vegas"?

(PS I had an OK time at the Wrest Point, Hobart, last weekend. BJ was fun to watch, especially when a gambler pointed out that he was paid for a win twice. First time I've seen that. :D)

IMHO, it should be a "worldwide" gaming travel destination forum. I don't think there would be enough interest for multiple "gaming area" forums; and leaving off classic (French Riviera) and emerging with a bang (Macau) destinations would be a very big mistake.

ahhh.. a "casino error thread" --- I can see it now. ;) And, boy, would I have a few good posts to add. :D:D

This could definitely have legs, so long as the OP's intent was stuck to: in the dropdown menu, there's "Las Vegas" and then right below "All Gaming, Not Vegas". If the not-Vegas forum idea gets too ungainly, treat it like ahotel forum and establish master threads for properties.

I dunno, colour me unconvinced we need a forum for every demographic on the planet, including this one though I know that seems to be the current FT trend.

I like this idea as well.

It would need to be a worldwide gaming board since one may be visiting South Africa or Panama and get bored on a Tuesday night, that sort of this.

Often enough, threads in other "travel" areas such as LV and mid-atlantic morph into "general gaming" discussions since people compare Biloxi casino spots to AC and LV, comparing action, accomodations etc. Even generic type questions such as "How far is Atlantic City to PHL/BWI/EWR?" and "Where should I fly if I need to go..." type questions.

I like checking out foreign casinos (as an American) although my luck in them lately has been virtually nil :( Questions/reports from them would be very welcome and wanted as well!

But i'm all-in (pun intended since we are talking about gambling) for sub-forum since I think there's sufficient interest in the topic.

What difference does demand make? If the gambling community here likes the forum and it cultivates a community, what's wrong with that (see Religious Travelers precedent)?

Agree here.

I'm not going to even try to touch on what the basis for a new forum on FlyerTalk should be. But, to say "gaming" is just another "demographic" is a bit shallow; since by all accounts gambling as a [leisure] travel activity is probably the fastest growing segment of leisure travel in the world.

This article is a bit dated, and the impact [of gaming], IMHO, is even more pronounced today.

LINK

Now, if the argument, is that new forums should ONLY be about miles and points, you won't get an argument from me, but that would probably have to be a consistent objective of FlyerTalk.

Let's remember, that gaming involves one of the cornerstones of FlyerTalk, the Frequent Guest (Flyer) programs which are a vital part of the "gaming" culture. Harrah's Total Rewards, Trump One, Borgata Rewards, Venetian Club Grazie, MGM-Mirage Players Club, Station Casinos Boarding Pass, Argosy Preferred Club, Resorts Destination Club Card are some of the more popular programs.

I agree that the "gaming" industry is evil, and that lots of folks look at it with disdain; but let's remember, that there is a reason that almost every person in the continental US lives within a 3 hour drive of a casino property ;) and, it isn't because nobody is traveling to casinos for entertainment.

Nope, still unconvinced in a shallow kind of way.

OK, I'm confused. Do you want a US domestic gambling forum? Do you want an international gambling forum? From my initial read of your request, it seemed like you wanted an international one, but actually from some of what I've read, it seems like I might have misinterpreted, and you actually just want to discuss US gambling.

Sorry for the confusion. ;)

Absolutely, without a doubt, an international/worldwide forum (and only one forum).

I ONLY have direct experience with the expansion of gaming opportunities in the US, so that is where I draw from, with regard to some of my data-points to justify this new forum. I know for a fact, that a similar explosive situation is happening in Macau, and other areas around the world. I just don't have personal experience to provide the necessary back-up data (though, I could find and provide that data, if folks were interested).

I feel that FlyerTalk would ONLY be able to support one "Gambling/Travel" forum, and dividing it up into geographic segments would only dilute the content and community.

Thank You, Jenbel, for forcing a clarification.

So, to be clear, NO new forums except for airline and hotel forums?

Though, Harrah's and MGM-Mirage probably operate more hotel rooms (and have more members in the respective frequent customer programs) than at least one of the hotel forums already offered on FlyerTalk.

In all seriousness, tcook052 care to share more than a one sentence justification for why this forum idea wouldn't be a viable option for FlyerTalk?

Would it be shallow of me to point out I never said it wasn't a viable option but rather that in my humble opinion that I was unconvinced we need a forum for every demographic on the planet? I said as much regarding recent TB votes on seniors, travelling with pets as well as a proposed solo travellers forum and so am saying it again becuase it is still my opinion.

I aplogize for the "shallow" reference (It truly wasn't meant to be taken personally ;) ), but in your humble opinion tcook052, is there no need for any new forums, or just a very specific model that should be followed with regard to the type of new forums introduced on FlyerTalk?

baccarat_king, are there other FT'ers who you know would support and participate in a gaming forum?

There is certainly strength in numbers so if you could convince any like-minded FT'ers to share their opinions here, it would be most helpful.

My reasons for gambling are two fold: (1) I like to gamble and win money (ha ha!)--besides the gambling aspects, playing in other destinations is an interesting experience; (2) to get to other destinations (generally) involves flying and this enables one to get special perks, if you do enough of it.
[For example, if you get 50,000 points in harrahs total rewards system, you can fly anywhere (they have a casino) in the continental us--this is NOT well publicized; while 50,000 sounds like a huge amount, with 8x, 15x, 25x (or more) multiplier days, the credits can grow fast.]
So I would lean more toward a forum which links travel AND gambling; it could serve as a place where interchange of special gambling and/or related travel promos are discussed.

That's what I thought, too. Personally, I think a non-Vegas gaming forum makes a lot of sense. How to get comped hotel nights, airfare, earning comps, tiers/status, etc. @:-)

As someone who enjoys combining some gambling when it coincides with my travels, weather it is cruise ship gambling, a trip to SIN or some Indian Casino in Oklahoma, I think the forum would be beneficial.

Yup, I'd definitely go for this.

Mike

I'd find it useful.

I would also appreciate such a forum. ^

Quite frankly, I'm not sure I see any downside to this at all.

I definitely see a viable niche for "Gambling Destinations Outside of Vegas".

I see gambling as a reason to travel similar to good restaurants or good shopping. Being an evil Californian, skiing and snowboarding don't really hold any allure to me; however, if my girlfriend gets a $100 tahoe lift ticket, and I get $100 to drink and gamble in the Tahoe hotel, we're both happy. I don't know the best places in Tahoe to gamble, and asking about it in the Las Vegas forum is a bit off-topic, but this question would be right at home in a new forum.

As others have mentioned, Harrahs and other player-dedication-reward cards offer airfare and hotel stays among their many benefits. Furthermore, at least in harrah's case, you can usually get more from visiting outside of Vegas since Vegas attracts people on its own.

With airfare getting more expensive every day, I am canceling my quarterly Vegas trip and exploring other options (gasp!) like Tahoe, Reno, or local Indian casinos. Whereas I never would've gambled in these places before, when the flight is costing twice as much as my partially-comped Vegas hotel, closer-to-home places start gaining a certain gleam.

Finally, and perhaps surprisingly, gambling no longer seems to be Vegas' main draw for the majority of people. Shopping, stage shows, concerts, fine dining, the open container policy...there's lots of good stuff.

Anyways, I am a relative FT newbie, so I hope my comment doesn't come across as "brian knows best" or as a complaint. It is just my two cents.

As an example of how gaming travelers are underserved, when was the last time the Aviator's Club (Paris) was discussed? Frankly, I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned here on FT. I really think there's a kind of Puritanical Christianity that influences the public arena as to what gets discussed which does not serve well those who wish to find answers to ALL their travel questions. I think a non-Vegas forum is overdue. All just my $0.02.

I support a "Gaming Destinations" forum. "Las Vegas" should be a subforum both of "West" and "Gaming Destinations."

The best reason for this is the changing FT demographic. More than perhaps any other BBS, FT has many members with discretionary money to spend and who like to live well. Heck, we have an entire forum devoted to Luxury Hotels. In the 1960s, frequent air travel was beyond the means of most people - what we now call frequent flyers were referred to as the "jet set." That era is about to return, if it is not already here. As fuel costs and fares increase, there will be fewer business travelers and mileage runners, and a greater proportion of frequent flyers will be people who are simply well-to-do.

Gaming destinations generally offer plush (if not truly luxurious) accommodations, gourmet food, headliner entertainment, etc. They can offer a taste of the good life to folks of modest means, either by their winning money in the casino, or their receiving "comps." If I stay at the 5* Wynn or Venetian the hotel rate I pay, if any, is far less expensive than a Luxury Hotel. Even if I had $500 to stay at the Ritz-Carlton, I'm sure I would feel out of place there. Maybe they would make me dress up for dinner. I bet the social life there is about as exciting as hangin' with Mr. & Mrs. Thurston Howell III. At a gaming table I can socialize with people from all over including bachelorettes, high rollers, low rollers, conventioneers, newlyweds, doctors, teachers, and retirees.

And we gamblers share the FT tradition of collecting and maximizing one's miles, points and other loyalty benefits: as BK points out most gaming companies offer loyalty programs; and hustling comps and attempting to get room upgrades for a proffered $20 bill has the same something-for-nothing allure as does entering contests and collecting pudding cups.

It seems to me that a gaming destinations forum would be qualititatively different to any other forum existing on FT, in that it would be the first board whose remit is defined by the purpose of travel (other than MR, but I am sure we can agree that MR is qualititatively different here due to its points and miles aspect). If that is OK, then why single out gaming out of all sorts of activities for which one might travel? Why not one forum on golf travel, skiing travel, snowboarding travel, etc... (add your favourite sports there), opera travel, architecture travel, art travel, line dancing travel, etc...

It seems to me that this would be opening a can of worms that we perhaps don't really need.

I'm in. Sounds like a winner.

That's just the point I'm making; there's always going to be a need for every new forum so where does it end? A forum for every demographic, special interest or subgroup? I know the current TB trend is to support, encourage and foster greater FT segmentation so that puts me in a minority of one that doesn't subscribe to this viewpoint but rather feels that greater segmentation runs the risk of a never ending parade of forum requests with a TB unable to say no due to it's unstated policy of always saying yes. While no doubt many would disagree I don't see a 500-channel FT universe as something to be embraced but rather avoided as IMHO what FT does best and has become known for is FFM/FFP/loyalty programs not special interest or demographic forums. Were you to lobby me for another forum specifically for casino or casino/hotel frequent guest loyalty programs as you've described you'd have my support but somewhere to talk gaming issues, sorry no.

You bet :) there are other FT'ers who would find a gaming forum helpful and actively participate.

As baccarat_king and mbstone indicated, it is in our blood to collect loyalty points and with many gaming destinations consolidating their loyalty programs it would be nice to have one central forum to review and compare programs and share experiences.

I do find the point NickB made pretty striking - there are a number of pastimes which could also make the same kind of arguments being made in this thread (skiing, safari/wildlife, hunting for example) and yet I'd hate to see FT going down that route, as it would mean destination information being spread across different fora and much more difficult to locate. In addition, for me there is the Religious Traveller's problem. I can no longer support fora which I am not sure will be successful. So I'm doubtful about this as an idea I'm afraid.

The biggest difference, is the ability to earn points. As far as I know, you don't accumulate points [at least in a FFB program sense] or discuss the accumulation of points in any of the other venues mentioned (Religious Traveller's, skiing, wildlife, hunting). Another similarity, is that these programs also have tier levels (gold, platinum, diamond) that are very similar to the type of levels offered by airline and hotel programs.

Most gaming destination travelers are focused on the comp (point) earning frequent player (guest) programs (such as Harrah's Total Rewards). These programs are a hugh part gaming travel, as the accumulation of points (or base/tier credits) at one property (say Las Vegas) can allow for free hotel stays (lounge access, free shows) at properties in other destinations (for example, Lake Tahoe). (Actually, you can even use your Harrah's points for free airfare)

While I think that there would not be enough interest to break these programs down into their own forums (and keeping them together is a plus, in my opinion), based on some of the [very thoughtful] feedback; and trying to keep the focus on miles & points, I would suggest that the forum be branded as :

Worldwide Gaming and Casino Frequent Customer (Player) Reward (Comp) Programs

For reference, a link to one of the most established programs, Harrah's Total Rewards.

A great example, of a long time thread in the Vegas Forum that deals with some of these issues, is the long running comp thread.

Another example, has some discussion of changes to the qualification of Diamond Tier in the Harrah's Total Rewards Program.

I like the idea in light of the expansion of gaming in other parts of the US and the rise of Macau.

One thing I've noticed too is that Vegas forum threads often go offtopic from the typical "where should I..." comments to about how Atlantic City is a destination now, the rise of Macau/Asia etc.. Singapore has some casinos on the blocks, Thailand is looking at partners, Japan's latent beaucracy has debated turning Odaiba, off the Tokyo coast into a "gambling town" area as well.

That's just Asia. "Video Lottery" terminals are now opening in Mexico as well, a place that hasn't had any gaming aside from sports in 60 years. Panama, Costa Rica, Argentina and Colombia all have casinos.

This is a big market.

I would definitely go for this. Gaming destinations have a special characteristic applicable to FlyerTalkers: the ability to garner bargains based on loyalty points, offers, and smart gambling that other types of destinations do not share.

There has been plenty of discussion, for instance, of how to maximize value from Harrah's Total Rewards program. This is not a Vegas-specific thing and it is definitely in the philosophy of FlyerTalk to share information about how to benefit from these programs.

One more thumb up!

QL

Great to see QuietLion here. ^

Some of you might not know, but gambling has been a massive growth industry in Australia since governments realised its worth as a cash cow.

The corporatisation of gambling here means there are a few big players (one being run by the Packer $cion on a multinational level) here. Crown is a major gaming destination accessible to serious gamblers from Asia and there seem to be some big-$ tournaments here.

I believe Randy Petersen was a hotel guest at the Crown last year (great hotel, btw) in Melbourne. :)

For any serious gambler travelling to Asia and Australia/NZ, there is a lot of potential for discussion of points and miles for an Australia/NZ trip, PLUS discussion of the comps and benefits of Crown and other groups.

I qualify this idea with this thought: will it reduce discussion in the regional destination fora? I will need to investigate this.

I give it a qualified ^.
I still believe award-winning (Freddie winner!) airlines with a growth story should be given preference for a new forum, but I guess that also comes back to (a) support for a forum and (b) miles and points opportunities. :)

Exactly and I'll throw in golfing, which is also very big business indeed. If gaming, why not golfing? Or skiing? Or running? Or, or, or...

Does golfing, or skiing, or running have any large global loyalty points program, similar to Total Rewards? Which currently, IIRC, has over 10 million members.

"Gaming Travel" is as much about earning points (and using points) as any other travel related loyalty program.

tcook052, since "points" would be a hugh aspect of this new forum, I suggested :

So, my assumption, is that I now have your (and others with concern about staying on focus with limiting forums to topics that are related to miles&points) support. ;)