nermaljcat

Good to see the vote is coming up. I only voted for TB candidates that support a new VX forum, so that my views would be represented.

...hey I think you were one of them Cholula

AZ Travels the World

I think this is right on the money, a point that was also well articulated by gkaczmarskyj. Build the place. Give people the opportunity to make it a thriving corner of the community. Or, as has been demonstrated time and again in recent years, people will create the place elsewhere. That would be (another) shame.

Additionally, as to the idea that post and thread numbers related to VX in the Other North & South American Forum are down in the past three weeks, I would suggest that extends largely across the board on FT during this busy holiday period, and is not specific to interest in VX. I know that, as a moderator, I've had far less to review and act upon in the three forums I moderate over the past month. (And while I'd like to believe it's the 'holiday spirit,' I know better than that. ) People are just busy in their lives this time of year and I believe interest and participation on FT is always slower from Thanksgiving through New Years.

Finally, I hope those TB members who cast a vote the first go around will honestly reflect on the fundamental decision here and not be caught up in the 'It's too soon to vote again, so I'll vote no, even though I voted yes the first time' mindset. To succumb to that line of thinking would be playing politics, at the expense of serving the community with integrity, by casting a vote on the merits of the issue at hand. Please don't start this new TalkBoard term going down that road.

Dovster

I wasn't going to make any further comments on this thread, but this comment, combined with what AZ Travels the World posted about playing politics, made me think about just what context had changed.

Spiff, to his credit, has not flip flopped on this issue since the last vote. Like me, he has been opposed to this forum since the beginning and, I presume, will keep that opposition until VX matures and there is considerably more interest in it.

I think that is a wise position but it is not anything new. I do disagree, however, with his statements that the forum should be turned down because VX has a bad FF program (El Al has one of the worst, but it got its own forum) or that VX had a bad quarter (we approved AZ's forum when it was obviously heading to bankruptcy). Moreover, there is nothing new in either of these. It had a bad FF program during the first vote and it was never a money-maker.

That the frequency of posts has gone down in the past few weeks is no surprise at all -- as AZ Travels the World pointed out, it has been happening across the board because of the holidays.

What then, can be the "change of context"? There are only two possibilities. The first is that TB already voted down the forum -- but it has reversed its votes more than once in the past. Additionally, a number of TB members (I know that I was one and I believe that Spiff was another) have repeatedly told people who are unhappy with TB decisions either to run for it themselves or to make certain that they vote for representatives who agree with them on key issues. That, we have said, it the way to get the changes that you want.

Having said that, we should not be turning to them now and saying, "Okay, you did what we asked but because the old TB felt one way, the new one should not feel any differently. It is too important to honor the old TB."

The only other change in context that I can see is that while the resolutions are identical, different TB members made and seconded them. In the first case, it was ScottC and Jenbel. Now it is Kokonutz and Punki.

Is it possible that votes will be changed simply because of who made the motion? Well, of course, anything is possible -- but to the best of my knowledge this has never happened in the past, at least not during my terms.
Moreover, it would promise a very unproductive year on TB if it were to happen.

We have often had strong personalities clashes on TB but when it came down to votes, each member decided based solely on the merits of the proposal (as he saw them), not on the question of who made it. Indeed, you will find a number of issues where two TB members who were not particularly fond of each other not only voted together but one made the motion and another seconded it.

I hope (and believe) that no TB member will now break that tradition. If Spiff had changed his vote to a "yes" or if Cholula had changed his to a "no" based on personalities, I would lose all respect I have for them.

Additionally, it would open the door to a year's worth of retribution -- and as a vote requires 2/3rds to pass (one person abstaining has the same effect as a "no") it would make it difficult for any motion to get through TB in the year.

I think that approving this forum now would be a mistake (although that might not be true in the future) but it would be less problematic than having TB members cast their ballots lightly and switching positions in a few weeks or -- and this would be the worst possible outcome -- voting based on personalities instead of issues.

nsx

IMHO, it's not playing politics to elevate (sorry about that pun) respect for prior TalkBoard decisions above the merits of the specific proposal at hand. To dismiss consideration of respect for the prior TB as irrelevant is to accept that TB should not behave differently from a purely political body.

To fight this tendency is not playing politics: It's playing anti-politics.

Randy Petersen

I happen to agree though i come at this from a far different POV. I actually hinted to the new Board that this really should not be about Virgin America. Rather, if this Board wanted to really make an impact, why focus on VX, why not for the sake of the future of FT, take the time and examine what measures might be implemented for actually determining when a forum for any program, airline, hotel, etc. becomes eligible for their own forum. The key is understanding that the current situation does not prohibit members from enjoying any contributions to the topic of VX. As i pointed out to the new members, Aer Lingus has many more threads and posts (nearly double) than VX and does not have it's own forum. Years back, members asked us to consolidate forums because the front page was getting too long.

Long story short, I tried the help this board see beyond this type of action so early and apparently have been rebuffed by the new members.

I;ll state again, rather than focus on VX, why does the board not work together to come up with a formula that will serve now and into the future on when a particular program may have enough thread, posts, page views to warrant its own forum. This way, these types of posts so far will not be a distraction and the Board can serve to take on many more issues important to our members.

I'm still amazed that seeing trees vs. seeing the forest has escaped the new makeup of the Board so far. I'm delighted to say that former members of the Board like The Starwood Lurker, A28 and Dovster did at least give some thought on how to approach managing all forum startups.

Still wondering why i was rebuffed by the new Board members when i factually mention that Aer Lingus has more threads and posts than VX and wondering why maybe they don't take time to look at the bigger picture.

But maybe whlinder, I missed the point that you make.

RichMSN

I would suggest we should have an Aer Lingus board, then, too.

Perhaps the TB simply disagreed with you.

With the use of "MyFlyerTalk," my front page is as neat and uncluttered as I want it to be. Why should we limit the number of boards when the technology is there for us to make our own home page and see (and not see) whatever forums we want?

peteropny

Totally agree with this.

I'll add my opinion that travel provider forums (Airlines, Hotels, Car Rentals etc) that are the "core" of FT should have less barriers to having their own forums than the "other" forums such as GLBT, Womens etc. These "other" forums should have more of a determination of "need".

Most threads/posts in the "core" forums really do not have much to do with the Loyalty program anyways - less than 1/4 I would guess. In Hyatt, early in 2007 I spent well over 100 hours organizing and creating the "Property Index & Review" thread which has absolutely nothing to do with the Gold Passport program.

ClueByFour

Simple solution to a complex problem: Randy ignores the political spats and does what he wants, perhaps including directing the Talkboard to devise a formula for new forum startups. A few people campaigned on that, none were elected.

Enjoy your Talkboard. I find the irony rather amusing.

kanebear

What many don't seem to understand is that adding on forums at a whim will result in LESS traffic, not more. Can't tell you how many times I've been to less heavily traffic'ed boards and seen 35 forums with 2-3 posts... and the entire board is dead dead dead. Better to have ONE forum in that case, and create others as traffic becomes a nuisance BUT NOT BEFORE.

RichardInSF

I am not a huge supporter of VX, but I would nonetheless like to re-iterate my support for VX having its own forum.

Maybe, as Randy has pointed out, Air Lingus has more total posts, but Air Lingus has had a zillion years to reach that level and VX is new -- so a comparison between the two isn't really a valid one.

whlinder

Hi Randy, that wasn't exactly the point of my post that you quoted, but was the point of my 2nd post in the thread. The point of my post that you quoted was that I (as a member) don't appreciate being asked by the TB for feedback on a vote that doesn't close for nearly 2 weeks when some TB members have publicly stated that they have already voted on the proposal. That's insulting to me; if they don't want feedback then don't ask for it.

I sincerely hope the TB takes your advice Randy and thinks of the bigger picture before rushing this forum through.

kokonutz

FWIW, I asked the other talkboard members if they were interested in a formal process of announcing when an idea was under consideration by the talkboard by posting this information in potentially affected forums. This was in response to an election question by Kiwi Flyer asking how the TB could increase poster input on TB ideas.

The consensus of the TB is that TB members are free to do this on an ad hoc basis but that no formal policy would be forthcoming.

So I simply took it upon myself to post the notice in the ONSAFFP forum, just as I have also done for the travel products forum idea in TTech and Women Travelers.

That notice/request for input should be pro forma, imho, so I plan on taking it upon myself to do it all the time, whether I have already made up my mind about an idea already or not.

I do acknowledge that it sure does look like I put the cart before the horse on this one, voting before posting the notice. I wont be doing that again, I promise.

That said, the poster input that I've seen since that announcement only strengthens my belief that this forum us a good idea (thank goodness). ^

whlinder

Sounds good to me koko.
Aside from poster input, do you believe creating this forum is a good idea? Are there other good reasons to create this forum?

kokonutz

To summarize what I've said above and in the private TB forum:

- The forum meets my personal standard for a new forum about an airline/hotel program (good future potential plus flyertalkers passionate about it plus a decent track record of posts)

- The forum provides a focused place to talk about a well-financed airline whose business plan calls for massive growth WHILE its FFP is being created. That will mean there will be a LOT to talk about and learn. And maybe, if VX is smart, they'll even check in and see what folks in the VX forum think during that process.

- If VX should fail, having the forum set apart will provide an easily accessible archive of the rise and fall of the airline and its ffp (as with Independence Air).

nologic98

totally agree. i have flown VX twice, and i'm likely do to it agian, and there are plenty of things the FT community could talk about here.

Vote=YEA!