(Voting Completed - Motion Failed) Should VX Have a Forum?
 

Moved by kokonutz and seconded by Punki:

that the Talkboard recommends that a new forum for Virgin America eleVAte FFP be created.

This poll will close on Jan 11, 08 at 1:03 pm

This promises to be an interesting and tight vote.

An identical motion was voted down just a few weeks ago but there has been some change of the TB membership since then (although really no change at all in VX's situation).

Of the members who are still on TB, Cholula, Jenbel, and Techgirl all voted in favor in the poll which closed on Dec 3.

bhatnasx, gleff, and Spiff all voted against.

Kokonutz and Punki (who just joined) made the new motion and, presumably, will join those who voted in favor. That would make it five for, 3 against, and leave LuckyCoins with the deciding vote.

(This, of course, presumes that nothing has happened between Dec 3 and now to change anyone's mind. I don't believe that there have been a lot of new threads which would influence those who voted against it last time and there certainly haven't been any threads which were removed, thus reducing the total and changing the minds of those who voted in favor.)

Which applies only to inferior courts deferring to the decisions of superior ones. Even SCOTUS has overturned its own previous rulings -- and legislatures do it all the time.

(Note: I am not advocating that the previous decision be reversed, merely commenting on the reality of the current situation.)

In this context, stare decisis is obviously an analogy.

Yes, there are times and occasions where stare decisis ought not be honored -- but only for the most compelling of reasons (e.g., Brown vs. Board of Education).

In general violating stare decisis (note: in its analogical sense as applied here) simply because the membership of the deciding body changes weakens the respect that that body is entitled to.

Essentially stare decisis restricts lesser courts from overuling the decisions of superior courts, to a much greater degree than it affect legislators. Electing new representative to get new results enacted is an essential block in the foundation of democracy. That's why we vote.

With regard to this specific issue, my initial inclination was to vote for it just because it was supported by so many of the FlyerTalk members who elected me to represent their interests.

The more I thought about and the more research I did, however, I came up with an even better reason to vote for the issue.

Creating a Virgin America forum, even before its FF program is established, provides FlyerTalk with a unique opportunity to contribute to and possibly even influence the formation of the VX FF program while it is still in its embryonic stages.

Once the forum is created and active, people who google "Virgin Amercia frequent flyer" will get FlyerTalk. ^ That's got to be good for FT as well.

When the Budget Travel Forum was first suggested, TalkBoard couldn't even get a motion made and seconded for it. It was instead tabled. With a change in membership, it passed and became an extremely successful forum.

Religious Travel, which admittedly has not been anywhere as successful, was rejected by TalkBoard and later passed -- even without a change in membership.

The question of whether to establish (or remove) a forum should not be set in concrete because of a prior decision -- especially when those making the decision are not the same ones who did earlier.

Where I will agree with cblaisd is that individual TalkBoard members should not reverse their votes lightly. Absent some significant change in the situation, I would expect each of the incumbent TB members to vote the same way they did a few weeks ago. To do otherwise would show that they either did not give serious consideration to their first decision or are not doing so with the second one.

I don't believe there has been any real change in the situation in the past few weeks. I also don't believe that any TalkBoard member thinks so little of his (or her) vote that he would lightly cast it without giving it sufficient thought.

That is why I expect the incumbents to vote the way they did, the mover and seconder to vote in favor, and for the deciding ballot to be in LuckyCoin's hands (and I have absolutely no idea of how he feels about it).

For what it's worth I have already cast my vote in favor of a VX forum. While I would have rather seen a few months between the two motions, a good idea is a good idea, and I feel a VX forum would be a great asset to FT.

FWIW, I ran for TB on a platform that included bringing ideas suggested by posters to a vote whether or not I actually agreed with the idea. My feeling was that too many ideas were left in limbo and posters' ideas never even got considered. So dont be surprised to see me second or even make a motion for an idea I end up voting against. My purpose in doing so will be to put each TB member on the record regarding that issue so that posters can make an informed vote at talkboard election time regarding how each TB member voted on the ideas they care about.

That said, I have already voted for this motion for the very compelling reasons Punki enumerates above.

Koko, you are wrong when you feel that by not bringing a question to a vote TB has not given it due consideration.

It may well be the case that it has discussed it, the various members have thought about it, but not even two find it worth bringing it to a vote.

You will see that there are many ideas floated around on TB Topics. Some are of great value. Others are patently foolish. TB really should not waste its time (and causing further discussion on TB Topics) by voting on completely worthless proposals.

I disagree with your dichotomy. There are many possibly explanations as to why one might reverse their vote.

Traffic in VX-related issues has actually decreased since the last vote. VX also reported a huge Q3 loss. There is still no FF program to speak of. None of these items bode well for a separate forum on a bulletin board devoted to miles and points.

With mostly negative changes for VX coupled with another vote pushed through so recently on the heels of the previous one, I'd not be surprised at all if people changed their vote. Other TalkBoard members may feel differently.

1. There are no fewer threads than there were three weeks ago.
2. The FF program is exactly the same as it was then.
3. If we didn't have forums for all the airlines that had large 3rd Q losses, there would be practically no forums at all.

In reality, nothing has changed in the last three weeks.

(BTW, I want to repeat that I am not arguing for this forum. If I were on TB I would vote against it -- but that is not a change in my position.)

The rate of participation in VX-related topics has decreased.


Yes, practically non-existent. "New eleVAte Program for 2008" idea seems to be lost on VX marketing.

Putting up such lousy numbers coupled with a sucky FF program hardly creates "buzz" for creation of a separate VX forum on a bulletin board devoted to miles and points.

Other TalkBoard members may feel differently.

Well said.

In the early 20th century, the board of one of the municipal electric companies in Hawai`i elected a new president to take office at the close of the meeting. During the lunch break, the current president quietly rounded up enough board members to make a quorum; they had a lunchtime meeting and that session of the board meeting held the election again and re-elected the current president. The respect of many was lost, even though at the time there were no laws or board rules to forbid what they did.

Stare decisis tends to be a good rule in both law and life, absent compelling reasons not abide by the rule.

I have the greatest respect for many TalkBoard members and would hate to see them put themselves in a position where a mere few weeks later they overturn a prior decision for no compelling reason.

Agreed. Each of them made a decision just three weeks ago, and I would not like to see any change their minds without a compelling reason.