You are right. Nothing has really changed except a few newly elected TalkBoard members.

The fact that I thought the new forum was a good idea three weeks ago, and still think it is a good idea now, is a pretty compelling reason to vote for it. ^

Actually, I felt much more comfortable posting on this before LuckyCoins announced how he voted. Until that point, it was clear that I was discussing how important it is that TB members think their votes through and not just cast ballots lightly. I also made it a point to say that I doubt that any TB member would casually switch votes in such a short period of time without a true compelling reason.

LuckyCoins' announcement of how he voted changes that situation. It is now obvious that if all the old TB members vote the way they did three weeks ago, the motion will pass.

By my contending that they should vote the same way (and I not only think they should but have enough respect for them to believe that they will) I am, in practical terms, arguing that this motion should be passed. As I oppose it, and have said so repeatedly when it was first suggested, that puts me in a very strange position.

Therefore, I will sum up as follows and then completely bow out of this discussion:

1. It is my own belief that this forum should not be established.
2. More important than that belief, however, is the point that TB members should not sway in the wind and should give careful consideration to all of their votes.
3. There has been no serious change in the situation in the past few weeks, so if a TB member did, indeed, think carefully before voting last time, he will vote the same way this time.

I disagree.

For a proposed forum whose proponents keep claiming there is "buzz" or "if you build it they will come", the decrease in the rate of VX traffic is certainly a good reason for people who voted "yes" to change to "no". The rapid return of this failed motion could also be a motivating factor to change one's vote from "yes" to "no".

Other TalkBoard members may feel differently.

How can we logiclly conclude that there has been a decrease in traffic on a forum that doesn't exist?

The best that we can say is that we have checked a few random places where we assume that folks interested in VX might guess to post and there seems to be a decrease in traffic in those spots during the holiday season. We have no idea if there have been hundreds of folks who looked for a VX fora, couldn't find one and just didn't post.

Either way, I think it is a good idea and will vote for it.

By measuring the traffic on such topics in the forum where people have been told such threads belong: ONSAFFP. Sounds pretty logical to me. Other TalkBoard members may feel differently. ;)

I'm willing to wager some pretty safe drink coupons on this not being the case, especially considering all the discussion that has been going on here about ONSAFFP being the current place for VX. A copious absence of any "Where do I post VX items?" threads anywhere also makes me believe my drink coupon wager is a pretty safe one. :)

Other TB members feel differently. ;)

If I were a casual poster and I had a question about VX but I didnt see it in the drop-down list I might very easily conclude that FT is not the place for me.

Further I dont support this forum based on 'buzz' or thread or view counts. I support it because there is a cadre of VX flyers and folks with an interest in VX who are also passionate flyertalkers and want to have the forum. That's precisely how flyertalk itself started, with a small cadre of passionate flyers who were also passionate flyertalk posters. I believe that, just like FT itself, with that passionate cadre and so much to talk about, VX has what it take to make it as a forum here. Maybe I'm wrong. But if so, what have we lost? Nothing.

Well darn it, where is my forum for Bob's Pretty Good Cropduster? ;) How about a forum for The Goodyear Blimp and Other Dirigibles?

Further fragmentation of FlyerTalk does not necessarily make it easier to find information. Rather than having a separate forum for every program that hints that a FF program is coming (or has even established one, though it may not be very good), a "miscellaneous" forum makes sense until such a program has demonstrated a demand.

While I appreciate the people who have weighed in on supporting a VX forum, the demand just isn't there yet. Obviously, other TalkBoard members may feel differently. :)

I compare VX to Independence. Maybe it fails, maybe it succeeds, but either way there are people who are passionate about the airline and passionate about flyertalk who are looking for a forum. And they deserve one, imho.

The airline itself will either grow or die. Either way the forum will serve a useful purpose (either as a vibrant forum or as a fascinating archive of a failed airline/frequent flyer program).

Grrrrrrr...if we were allowed to open the TB debate forum on a read only basis I wouldnt have to make these same points in two different places! @:-):(

And if I could get the physics worked out for my teleportation system, I wouldn't need to read up on miles and points. ;)

No point in getting worked up over that which we currently cannot change. @:-)

If a person were to do this for the reason you've listed, it would indicate that the interest and wishes of the members who elected them is not what is being considered when they make their vote.

Or perhaps in the greater sense of an advisory board, some people, both board members and their supporters, might object to failed proposals being revisited so quickly, whether they are proponents of the proposal or not. @:-) Other TalkBoard members may feel differently.

Well, that's readily fixable without further fragmentation of FT that does no one any good and harms the "casual poster" who can't find stuff: put a VX link in the drop-down list and make it actually redirect to the Other N/S America forum. Same with the small airlines that mostly service small-town Arizona and New Mexico; put their names on the drop-down list, and have them re-direct to Other N/S America forum. Same with, say, Mokulele Airlines or George's Aviation or Pacific Wings; put them on the drop-down list to "help the casual poster" but they can actually redirect to the Hawaii-based Airlines forum. That way no "casual poster's" feelings will be hurt, and he or she won't feel marginalized, and shut out from our amazing community. ^

That is so well-put it ought to be on a Hallmark card.

I didn't elect them to "represent" my interests in any over-simple way; if we wanted to have that be the Talk Board members' function, we could simply have every issue be decided by all the members of FlyerTalk -- a kind of town hall for everything. Then we wouldn't need a Talk Board (but that's another subject ;)), just some good polling software.

I didn't vote for those whom I did because I expect them to "represent" my views, I voted for them because I had learned to trust their judgment and therefore expected them to continue using that independent judgment to make FlyerTalk a better place through the implementation of good ideas and the blocking of silly ones.

And, after all, it isn't your interest or mine that matters, it's what's in the best interest of FlyerTalk. I would hope that those for whom I voted would have that as their goal and motivation, not simply trying in some way to ascertain my point of view and then vote "my" way. That would be more like pandering than anything else, imo.

I was and am in favor of a VX forum, but I am saddened that the new TB members did not have enough respect for the prior TB to let more time pass before making this motion. This is not what I call getting off on the right foot. Not to put a fine point on it, it's antisocial. Public forums have to deal with a wide variety of antisocial behavior, but the Talk Board should be better.

This motion puts TB members who favor the new forum in the difficult position of choosing between the new forum and respect for the prior Talk Board. IMHO, respect for the prior TalkBoard is more important for FT than is the VX forum. For this reason, had I been elected I would have chosen to support the integrity of TalkBoard decisions by voting against the VX proposal at this time.

That's a much better explanation of the kinds of things I had in mind with my stare decisis analogy than I offered. Thank you.