kokonutz

In post #456 he refined his assertion to Travel Tools and Technology (ie, software vs. hardware).

Nevertheless, (and without getting into moderation issues) while clearly travel technology could be considered a subset of travel products, those forums are the difference between shopping at Best Buy and shopping at Sharper Image, ie, travel tech hardware vs. travel accessories. Very different product, very different customer, very different conversations.

And based on the threads in all three of those forums the distinction is very clear to all posters that one forum is tech software, one is tech hardware, one is travel accessories.

But sure, I'd be open to changing the name of Travel Products to Travel Accessories or Travel Accessories and Hard Products in the name of clarity. ^

Now compare that situation to TB/TN. Those who want general travel information want general travel information whether it's in the form of articles or general information. So, as Prospero demonstrates, confusion abounds about what belongs in the Travel News forum vs. travel buzz and the balance of FlyerTalk forums about specific programs, companies, etc. The strangely redundant and very narrow remit of TN leaves posters confounded.

jackal

FWIW, I see very distinct topics for these forums.

Travel Tools are about the digital software we all use (geeks and non-geeks alike) to make the process of booking travel and traveling easier. These are things like ITA, ExpertFlyer, Lounge Buddy, TripIt, AwardNexus, etc.. Yes, they are pieces of technology, but they are specifically the tools we use to help us "hack" travel itself.

On the other hand, Travel Technology is for things like comparing the best tablets, which cell phones will work overseas, obtaining SIM cards for local calls and data, etc.--the things we use to stay productive when traveling. (Since I work remotely, this forum is quite useful to me when I need to travel overseas and remain connected.) Yes, it's where the technology geeks hang out and talk about everything from the pros and cons of Windows 10 to antivirus software to cable vs. DSL at home to whatever, and so it's become sort of FlyerTalk's "general technology" forum (even if it isn't strictly related to travel), but for the most part, it's for talking about the technology that keeps us connected while we travel.

There actually isn't much overlap between those two forums, IME. I can see how to a non-techy person it looks the same ("Oh, it's all computer stuff"), but the difference to a non-techy person is that Travel Tools may actually be a useful forum (because virtually all of us who travel, regardless of interest in technology, use many of these tools), whereas it would probably be OK for a non-techy person (or someone who doesn't need to stay connected and productive while traveling) to ignore Travel Technology, because they're not looking to go out and optimize their technology experience for travel. I have lots of family members who travel only for leisure and don't even think of technology beyond just bringing their cell phone with them when they travel and know just enough to keep it in airplane mode when overseas, and Travel Technology isn't going to be a useful forum for them--whereas I can't fathom traveling without my laptop, phone, Mifi, 500 charging plugs and cables, 37 SIM cards for each country I plan to visit, and whatever else. (Seriously, anyone who has ever picked up my backpack can remark about how heavy it is, and it's all tech crap.)

Travel Products is where all the travel accessories get talked about. I see lots of discussion about everything from luggage to wallets to pillows to earplugs to water bottles. That, too, is very different from Travel Tools and Travel Tech. These are the products that make the physical process of travel more comfortable.

I guess you could kind of argue that Travel Tech is a subset of Travel Products, but the discussion in Travel Tech is, IMHO, intense enough (and segregated enough from non-tech accessories in that the target audience is different--that is, people interested in Tumi luggage do not necessarily have a positive correlation with being interested in whether the Surface Book Pro is a useful laptop-replacement) that it warrants a separate forum. If Travel Products suddenly got overrun with hundreds of posts about the finer points of travel coffee mugs and which ones accepted coffee from hotel coffee makers and all that, then at that point, a dedicated Travel Coffee Mug forum may make sense. That's how Travel Tech would be mixed in Travel Products.

Here's what my perspective is on everything. Whenever I make a decision about what to do with forums on FlyerTalk, my perspective is based on what will make the overall best experience for the FlyerTalk community. Sometimes, segregating discussion out makes sense--the topic lends itself to independently attractive and vigorous discussion. Such is the case with Travel Technology. It is a topic of high interest with its own set of passionate followers, and so having it be in a dedicated forum makes it easy and convenient to find and ensures that the topic will receive the attention it deserves.

Other times, though, a subject just doesn't have quite the level of interest to independently attract robust discussion, and so segregating it into its own forum actually makes it harder to get answers, because if the topic were mixed in with discussion in a forum that has more eyeballs, then people casually looking at the broader topic might find a thread on this sub-topic that catches their eye and provide a response, where it might go unnoticed and unanswered if it were segregated in a quieter forum.

I think in past days--in a time where we had a prolific supporter of that forum and in a different online environment where news clipping services filled a need that isn't really a thing any longer--Doc's Newsstand (aka Travel News) had the ability to independently attract a large audience. These days, though, the more I think about it and look into it, the more it looks like sequestering it away in the current forum actually hurts the overall FlyerTalk community by limiting the eyeballs and discussion that such topics might otherwise receive.

dchristiva

Probably not. Just different perspectives and opinions. Your post above, for instance, illustrates that. I am not in the IT world. To me, software and hardware are not distinct matters. However, I understand and respect your belief/assertion that they are different. I see the TN issue in the identical light. You do not. Agree to disagree. I don't see it as an issue where I would say the lack of agreement on the issue is due to "incumbency". TB seems to disagree with you. You don't seem to like that and want to toss out rationalization like "incumbency" rather than "they just don't agree with me."

tcook052

Not quite as high end luggage like the aforementioned Tumi is frequently discussed in Travel Products so it isn't the low rent cheap travel accessories you make the forum out to be with your Best Buy comment. The two forums are more similar than dissimilar to me and so are as redundant as TN and TB are to you.

jackal

I think Koko understated the difference between the forums. Given my post just above, can you better articulate why you see Travel Tech and Travel Products as similar and overlapping--and then why you think having travel news articles appear in TravelBuzz will detract from rather than enhance the FlyerTalk experience?

Xyzzy

Why? Because it lets me find travel-related news items that either wouldn't be posted at all or would be posted in forums that I'd never venture into and where said items would just disappear into the woodwork. I realize you're not in agreement. I see the continued existence of the Travel News forum as a (so far) small bit of success in the war against overmoderation in the form of combining/consolidating everything such that stuff just can't be found.

Where do you think threads like these would end up without this forum?

Reuters: Boeing cuts 747-8 production in half
Business Insider: Europe 'big five' airlines launch new alliance
The Atlantic: the Concorde ("It saved time.")

kokonutz

[/SIZE]TravelBuzz, where airplanes and other general travel topics are regularly (I was just engaged in a discussion about DC-10s/L1011s this morning) discussed* both with and without a link to a news item.

*Discussed. Not posted to crickets and maybe a few hundred views. This is FlyerTalk after all.

I check TB regularly and get plenty of news there. Certainly far more than the thread or two a week that appear in Travel News. Just like I get plenty of interesting general news on OMNI and interesting political news on O/PR. There is simply no need to have a Travel News forum in order to consume Travel News on FlyerTalk. To the contrary, precious little travel news is posted or discussed in that forum.

To be perfectly clear in case I have not been: by 'the power of incumbency,' I am specifically referring to the fact that if someone proposed creating this forum today then there is no way it would meet the criteria or threshold to be created.

But the fact that it already exists (ie, is an incumbent forum) allows it to continue to exist in spite of it's not having the qualifications to make it as a new forum because it's already there, 'not bothering anyone' so who cares if it's redundant/not used very much.

That's the 'power of incumbency.' Sorry if I wasn't clear about that before.

Prospero

I think is fair to say all forums overlap to some degree but as it is marginal it is considered acceptable as a rule. For example, it is quite common to read threads posted in airline forums relating to class of service perks offered by one airline by virtue of holding status as a member of a FFP belonging to a different airline.

TN differs and profoundly so. Its very foundation is constructed by topics that are accommodated in other forums. The overlap is not marginal, it is absolute. If TN happened to be performing in a way that justified the overlap e.g. having the critical mass sufficient to generate unique and purposeful discussion, then I don’t think there would an issue to raise to TalkBoard. If TN’s purpose was crystal clear, thus avoiding confusion amongst members then that might also be justifiable. But it is not and it is not.

You might consider an alternative view such that TN is just quirky, has never generated much in the way of discussion or member participation but that is the way it is. Loved by a small minority, warts and all. Acceptance of the quirks is one thing, but without acknowledging the faults, improvement and betterment to our members will never be realised.

Canarsie

I launched a WikiPost to provide a concise summary for FlyerTalk members to read the pros and cons of keeping the Travel News forum open without having to wade through the extensive content.

Please contribute to that WikiPost as necessary so that the entire debate can be summarized in a quick read and encourage more FlyerTalk members to opine on this topic...

...and — of course — anyone who wants to read all of the details, arguments and information posted in this discussion is always welcome to do so.

Please also feel free to link any pertinent content in this discussion to what you post in the WikiPost.

Thank you.

tcook052

On that we can agree.

Travel Products and Travel Technology are similar enough to me as both ultimately come down to discussing travel items whether its tablets or carry-ons and could occupy the same forum given the natural connection between what you're packing and how you're packing it. It seems unnecessary, for example, to have one forum where I ask about Bose NC headphones but another about how to pack said headphones. nsx's 2015 forum activity stat.'s posted here show Travel Technology the much busier of the two forums so consolidation shouldn't swamp it with a tidal wave Travel Product topic threads.

I understand the desire to segment out discussion into separate forums but it can be done to the point where it prevents overlap which is how I see Travel Technology and Travel Products. There doesn't seem to me to be the same overlap with Travel Buzz and Travel News as the former is a dynamic non-program travel discussion venue, or Travel OMNI as it were, while the latter is a less discussion focused format of aviation related items making the news. If the two forums were mixed how would users know for example that "the 10 ugliest aircraft" wasn't me asking but was me posting an article some aviation analyst wrote in the NYT? If users are asked to use an icon to denote a news article (like the one in the similes icon choices for example) then merging TN with TB could work but if only a few regular posters did it and not everyone it would lose its effectiveness.

MHO is that TB should only consider changing the current status of the Travel news and Travel Buzz forums if it's willing to consider other possible forum redundancies with an eye to amalgamation. Just MHO.

Colour me unconvinced given the prevailing TB 'build it they will come' philosophy with regard to forum creation.

kokonutz

I am going to suggest the creation of an 'Off-Topic News Items' forum. You know, OMNI News.

Do you think the TB will recommend that it be created?


United is a relatively busy forum. Do you think the TB will recommend creating a United News forum for posters that want to talk about articles about United separately from talking about United rather than posting those articles in the United forum?

I think not.

If you answer yes, we can test the question!

dchristiva

Very helpful clarification. Thanks. ^

nerd

Are there other forums that are redundant by design in the way Travel News is, with its meta-discussion mandate?

dchristiva

I suppose I should know the answer, but how many new forums have been created in the last 12-15 months? I can only think of one (Smoking Lounge) which appears to have been well-received by those how share that interest.

tcook052

Five in total:South African and Copa airline forums, the Smokers Lounge, Premium Fares forum, and Citibank forum.

Anything is possible given the 'build it they will come' philosophy many TBers hold. After all you talked them into the EM&PR forum...