SWISS Senses: Allegris for LX
Apr 8, 2024, 4:56 pm
#166
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC -- UA 1K; SPG Platinum; HH Diamond.
Posts: 2,946
I'm the last to defend LHG but we may be reading something into this beyond the actual meaning or what was actually said. If a full fare F from NY to ZRH and back is about $24K and an A fare return is about $12K, then, by reference to full F fares, that A fare is by definition a "reduced fare".
The only statement we got here was "in average 2-3 FCL seats today are sold as full fare, others as reduced fare or upgrades". It doesn't say that the "others" are crap or not real. It just says they're not "full fare". It's one way of measuring the economics of the cabin -- not the only one, and, in my opinion, not the best one, but it's legitimate. That's the highest price they're asking for and it makes sense for a business to know how many units it sells at the highest price. In any case, I would be shocked if they're not looking at in in multiple ways. Finally, I have travelled plenty of times in A and never felt like a "second class citizen" either on the ground or in the air.
The only statement we got here was "in average 2-3 FCL seats today are sold as full fare, others as reduced fare or upgrades". It doesn't say that the "others" are crap or not real. It just says they're not "full fare". It's one way of measuring the economics of the cabin -- not the only one, and, in my opinion, not the best one, but it's legitimate. That's the highest price they're asking for and it makes sense for a business to know how many units it sells at the highest price. In any case, I would be shocked if they're not looking at in in multiple ways. Finally, I have travelled plenty of times in A and never felt like a "second class citizen" either on the ground or in the air.
Apr 8, 2024, 11:44 pm
#167
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,994
I'm the last to defend LHG but we may be reading something into this beyond the actual meaning or what was actually said. If a full fare F from NY to ZRH and back is about $24K and an A fare return is about $12K, then, by reference to full F fares, that A fare is by definition a "reduced fare".
The only statement we got here was "in average 2-3 FCL seats today are sold as full fare, others as reduced fare or upgrades". It doesn't say that the "others" are crap or not real. It just says they're not "full fare". It's one way of measuring the economics of the cabin -- not the only one, and, in my opinion, not the best one, but it's legitimate. That's the highest price they're asking for and it makes sense for a business to know how many units it sells at the highest price. In any case, I would be shocked if they're not looking at in in multiple ways. Finally, I have travelled plenty of times in A and never felt like a "second class citizen" either on the ground or in the air.
The only statement we got here was "in average 2-3 FCL seats today are sold as full fare, others as reduced fare or upgrades". It doesn't say that the "others" are crap or not real. It just says they're not "full fare". It's one way of measuring the economics of the cabin -- not the only one, and, in my opinion, not the best one, but it's legitimate. That's the highest price they're asking for and it makes sense for a business to know how many units it sells at the highest price. In any case, I would be shocked if they're not looking at in in multiple ways. Finally, I have travelled plenty of times in A and never felt like a "second class citizen" either on the ground or in the air.
Apr 9, 2024, 12:53 am
#168
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX HON***, FB Silver, BA Silver, Bonvoy Gold, Hyatt GP, Hertz Gold, GHA Black
Posts: 844
Who knows… Bad interpretation or translation or just poor choice of words. On its face, I don’t interpret this negatively and it could simply mean that the rest of the seats (zero to 6) are sold as either (1) not full fare F or (2) upgrades. Not sure where award tickets fall but I’m sure they’re not viewed as full fare F.
More importantly, let’s hope that the 777 stays with 2 rows, if they could get rid of that stupid 1.5 seat in the center and have normal seats there, I’ll be fine.
More importantly, let’s hope that the 777 stays with 2 rows, if they could get rid of that stupid 1.5 seat in the center and have normal seats there, I’ll be fine.
Apr 9, 2024, 1:29 am
#169
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: BSL, Switzerland
Programs: BA EC Gold, M&M Senator, HHonors Diamond, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 189
Bad translation or not - the essence is that they are able to sell more CCL seats for a higher amount in total than to add 4 FCL seats (call it reduced fare or full fare in certain competitive markets). The $$ counts and here it seems they believe in maximizing CCL fares plus seat fees.
And if you look at the seatmaps of Allegris C, you'll notice that the first row of 4 C seats requires more or less the same amount of space as 3.5 F seats.
We'll see how things develop - the good news is that Allegris F still seems to be years away. The bad news is that those LX A330 need a cabin upgrade better sooner than later.
Apr 9, 2024, 2:25 am
#170
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Stoke on Trent, UK (MAN ), BUE, BKK, DBV
Programs: LH HON***,UA,BA.EK Gold,AV.
Posts: 11,934
Yes, this is the view you may get from looking at an excel spreadsheet - but what if those CCL seats are sold because some people buy them in expectation to use their hard earned loyality instruments to upgrade or to book an award flight? LH may say the majority of people does not care, but loyality is not to be underestimated.
And if you look at the seatmaps of Allegris C, you'll notice that the first row of 4 C seats requires more or less the same amount of space as 3.5 F seats.
We'll see how things develop - the good news is that Allegris F still seems to be years away. The bad news is that those LX A330 need a cabin upgrade better sooner than later.
And if you look at the seatmaps of Allegris C, you'll notice that the first row of 4 C seats requires more or less the same amount of space as 3.5 F seats.
We'll see how things develop - the good news is that Allegris F still seems to be years away. The bad news is that those LX A330 need a cabin upgrade better sooner than later.
Apr 9, 2024, 4:58 am
#171
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,994
Bad translation or not - the essence is that they are able to sell more CCL seats for a higher amount in total than to add 4 FCL seats (call it reduced fare or full fare in certain competitive markets). The $$ counts and here it seems they believe in maximizing CCL fares plus seat fees.
Apr 9, 2024, 7:18 am
#172
Join Date: May 2016
Programs: LXFF
Posts: 515
The goal is to have only paid full fare tickets, clearly. First it was the M&M restrictions, then voucher restrictions...then reduce the number of seats. Cash upgrades are more expensive now. In a few years, management will be shown a chart with F program costs down 30% with revenue down only 5%. C class profits up 15%.
Apr 9, 2024, 4:19 pm
#173
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,994
The goal is to have only paid full fare tickets, clearly. First it was the M&M restrictions, then voucher restrictions...then reduce the number of seats. Cash upgrades are more expensive now. In a few years, management will be shown a chart with F program costs down 30% with revenue down only 5%. C class profits up 15%.
Apr 17, 2024, 1:19 am
#174
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,454
A couple of updates from yesterday's SWISS management talk:
[...]
4. Both B777 and A330 will be retrofitted. B777 is there to stay until mid 2030s and will feature 6 F new seats, while A350 and A330 will have 3 F.
[...]
Overall, the call was quite OK. For me, the most important update was about the dynamic pricing and the reconfirmation re: F cabin upgrades.
[...]
4. Both B777 and A330 will be retrofitted. B777 is there to stay until mid 2030s and will feature 6 F new seats, while A350 and A330 will have 3 F.
[...]
Overall, the call was quite OK. For me, the most important update was about the dynamic pricing and the reconfirmation re: F cabin upgrades.
Apr 17, 2024, 4:08 am
#175
formerly a193991
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Zulu Romeo Hotel
Programs: Hyatt LT Globalist; LX SEN (*A Gold), AA LTG, SBB-CFF-FFS First Class GA
Posts: 4,666
During the Allegris call earlier this week it was mentioned that the retrofit of the LX B77W is super far out (post 2026) and nothing about the cabin has been cast in stone ('alles noch gedankenspiele'). The B77W cabin is relatively new and doesn't need urgent replacement unlike other cabins (eg LX A330), their focus is currently on getting the LH/LX A359 & LH B789 line fitted properly and working on the retrofit of the LX A330 and LH B748 in 2025/26.
As per this interview with Dieter Vrankkx, the new 777 will have 6-8 F Class seats (i.e. in any case 2 rows). Dieter Vranckx, Swiss: Knnten unsere Boeing 777 durch Airbus A350-1000 ersetzen - aeroTELEGRAPH
Die First Class wird dagegen halbiert. Heit das, Swiss bot bisher zu viele Pltze an?
Mit den Doppelsitzen in der Mitte werden es in den Airbus A330 und A350 – je nachdem – drei oder vier First-Class-Pltze sein. Von unseren aktuell acht Sitzen verkaufen wir durchschnittlich zwei bis drei zu Normalpreisen. Die anderen sind entweder Upgrades zum Beispiel mit Meilen, gehen an Vielfliegerinnen und Vielflieger, oder werden zu reduzierten Preisen angeboten. Rein rechnerisch passen daher drei bis vier First-Pltze. Zudem weist das neue First-Class-Konzept Suiten mit Tren auf. Das braucht Platz. Es wrde auf Kosten der Business Class gehen, wenn wir mehr solche Pltze in der First Class einbauen wrden. Das wollen wir nicht. In den Boeing 777 werden wir aber nach wie vor zwei First-Class-Reihen anbieten, also sechs bis acht Pltze. Und wir werden uns ganz genau anschauen, wie die beiden Konzepte ankommen.
Mit den Doppelsitzen in der Mitte werden es in den Airbus A330 und A350 – je nachdem – drei oder vier First-Class-Pltze sein. Von unseren aktuell acht Sitzen verkaufen wir durchschnittlich zwei bis drei zu Normalpreisen. Die anderen sind entweder Upgrades zum Beispiel mit Meilen, gehen an Vielfliegerinnen und Vielflieger, oder werden zu reduzierten Preisen angeboten. Rein rechnerisch passen daher drei bis vier First-Pltze. Zudem weist das neue First-Class-Konzept Suiten mit Tren auf. Das braucht Platz. Es wrde auf Kosten der Business Class gehen, wenn wir mehr solche Pltze in der First Class einbauen wrden. Das wollen wir nicht. In den Boeing 777 werden wir aber nach wie vor zwei First-Class-Reihen anbieten, also sechs bis acht Pltze. Und wir werden uns ganz genau anschauen, wie die beiden Konzepte ankommen.
First Class, on the other hand, will be halved. Does this mean that Swiss previously offered too many seats?
With the double seats in the middle, there will be three or four First Class seats in the Airbus A330 and A350, depending on the situation. Of our current eight seats, we sell an average of two to three at normal prices. The others are either upgrades, for example with miles, go to frequent flyers or are offered at reduced prices. In purely mathematical terms, three to four First seats therefore fit. The new First Class concept also has suites with doors. That takes up space. It would be at the expense of Business Class if we were to install more seats like this in First Class. We don't want that. However, we will continue to offer two First Class rows in the Boeing 777s, i.e. six to eight seats. And we will take a very close look at how the two concepts are received.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
With the double seats in the middle, there will be three or four First Class seats in the Airbus A330 and A350, depending on the situation. Of our current eight seats, we sell an average of two to three at normal prices. The others are either upgrades, for example with miles, go to frequent flyers or are offered at reduced prices. In purely mathematical terms, three to four First seats therefore fit. The new First Class concept also has suites with doors. That takes up space. It would be at the expense of Business Class if we were to install more seats like this in First Class. We don't want that. However, we will continue to offer two First Class rows in the Boeing 777s, i.e. six to eight seats. And we will take a very close look at how the two concepts are received.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Apr 17, 2024, 5:47 am
#176
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,994
As per this interview with Dieter Vrankkx, the new 777 will have 6-8 F Class seats (i.e. in any case 2 rows). Dieter Vranckx, Swiss: Knnten unsere Boeing 777 durch Airbus A350-1000 ersetzen - aeroTELEGRAPH
translated:
translated:
Looks like it, but, and that's a big "but", you will also lose some of the paid F-flyers, if they cannot use their miles and vouchers to fly F.
Apr 17, 2024, 11:44 am
#178
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: ZRH, Switzerland
Programs: M&M, Fan of MO, Shangri-La.
Posts: 689
Followed by the then next logical step, to hire a consultant, who will prove with an impressive set of colorful slides, that the best thing to do with the freed up space is to add another row of first class.
Apr 17, 2024, 12:08 pm
#179
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geneva
Programs: LX SEN, AFKL Platinum, BA Bronze,
Posts: 5,812
Not surprising that management need mathematics to make 4 F seats out of 3. The alternative is customer gymnastics, I guess
Apr 17, 2024, 12:11 pm
#180
Join Date: Sep 2022
Programs: United Mileage Plus
Posts: 816
I am flying LX38 in a few days.
IIRC, I booked this routing because it was one of the shortest in duration and the price was among the lowest.
I've flown LX38 a couple of times before and managed to get the throne seat at least once. Hoping to do it again for this upcoming flight.
It sounds like LX isn't going to get true 1-2-1 business cabins for awhile. At least not on flights to SFO at least.
And once they roll out this new product with the branding, they will try to command premium pricing it sounds like?
IIRC, I booked this routing because it was one of the shortest in duration and the price was among the lowest.
I've flown LX38 a couple of times before and managed to get the throne seat at least once. Hoping to do it again for this upcoming flight.
It sounds like LX isn't going to get true 1-2-1 business cabins for awhile. At least not on flights to SFO at least.
And once they roll out this new product with the branding, they will try to command premium pricing it sounds like?