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Do we need moderators?
What does the forum Feel? Be frank
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absof***nglutely
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drbala - there is a lot of history to the question you ask. The decision has been made by the owners of FlyerTalk to implement moderators. There is no reason to debate the presence of moderators on FlyerTalk.
------------------ burkey FlyerTalk Miles Moderator The Buzz American Airlines [email protected] |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Moderator1: drbala - there is a lot of history to the question you ask. The decision has been made by the owners of FlyerTalk to implement moderators. There is no reason to debate the presence of moderators on FlyerTalk. </font> I beg to differ. There is no need to censor drbala's post because she is simply asking what people feel and think. She is not asking for a debate with FlyerTalk. |
It's off topic for this forum, though. This is a discussion of mileage programs, not bulletin boards. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
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.........and since there are only a few moderators on a few boards - isn't this just a trial? Are full blown moderators a given?
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What is a moderator?
Why are they only on some programs but not all? |
Moderator 1:
I am surprised by your resistance to debating/discussing the value/role of moderators. I certainly think discussing this kind of stuff is within the spirit of the FT community...I think people are commenting here because they care, not out of any ill-will. As I mentioned in my recent Siberia post, I don't blame the Moderators for enforcing the rules. I think the rules themselves go too far....and should be debated. If I owned FT, I would invite feedback as a way to learn and continually improve. But I don't, so if the owners don't want feedback on these issues, then let us know. They seem to have sought feedback like this in the past, and I suspect the current changes themselves are the result of interpreting feedback like this from the community? [This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-11-2001).] |
ok, here is a quote from Randy on 7/20 from his Forum in regards to moderators. He was looking for feedback from the moderators and maybe he will be interested in feedback from the community as well:
*************************************** We have one goal with this and that is to make sure it works. After two weeks of making sure our plans are doable and with the feedback we receive from the 3 amigos, we will introduce 12 other members to help you out. They are here only to make sure your experience while on FlyerTalk is everything you want it to be. ***************************************** Yes, this is Randy's board. However, it is a business and advertising& future reservations look to be part of it. I believe he will want a majority happy and participate so the community will grow and make this one of the few dot com business models to truly grow and be profitable. While this may really be a joy to Randy, I doubt he is in this just for his good health! ****************************************** [This message has been edited by fscher (edited 08-11-2001).] |
Do we need 'em? Yes we do.
Do we need 'em to move posts that are "outside" the scope of the forum they're posted in but are doing just fine there thankyouverymuch? No, we don't. |
It seems to me that the moderators are closing threads left and right. They just recently closed down a thread in which someone was asking why they were closing down all the threads. Maybe moderators are needed to keep people from getting out of hand, Maybe moderators are needed for the occasional person who goes way out of line and says something that offends the entire flyer talk community, But I certainly do not think moderators are needed to move threads around from one place to another. This only creats confusion and a lot of work for not only the moderators, but for the people of flyertalk, because we never know where a post or a thread will eventually end up. I also do not think moderators need to close down threads if there is no hostility or nothing offensive.
Thats just my two cents! Thanks |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pointsgirl: It seems to me that the moderators are closing threads left and right. They just recently closed down a thread in which someone was asking why they were closing down all the threads. Maybe moderators are needed to keep people from getting out of hand, Maybe moderators are needed for the occasional person who goes way out of line and says something that offends the entire flyer talk community, But I certainly do not think moderators are needed to move threads around from one place to another. This only creats confusion and a lot of work for not only the moderators, but for the people of flyertalk, because we never know where a post or a thread will eventually end up. I also do not think moderators need to close down threads if there is no hostility or nothing offensive. Thats just my two cents! Thanks</font> |
Being new to this board, but having lurked
a long time before joining, I would have to say the addition of moderators has made me less likely to post. The concept does not bother me but the way in which it is being handled seems like censorship not moderation. For some reason I keep thinking they are more like Delta's RPU police and not moderators. (joke guys) |
As stated before: I seriously doubt it. At least not the way it is now.
Of course we need someone to step in if somebody seriously crosses a line but to my knowledge such incidents are rare. I am not going to comment any more of the strange movements of threads away from The Buzz. However, I do find it strange that the present moderators would oppose a discussion of their moderation. Also I fail to see why they feel like defending everything they do. After all, just like in soccer the greatest judge (and in this case moderator) is the one who's actions are not commented on. If/when on some sunny day nobody wants to discuss the moderators then we will know that they are doing a good job. [This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 08-12-2001).] |
First - Please read the entire thread to date, no where did I oppose the discussion of the role of the moderators on FlyerTalk. I did however make it quite clear there there would be moderators. That was my direct reply to drbala.
Second - At the end of the day, the bottom line, take home message is that FlyerTalk Miles is for the discussion of Miles & Points, not whiskey, not kids in first class, not tipping the FA's, and not if overweight people should buy 10 seats or not. All that is for FlyerTalk Travel, peroid. I'm at a loss to understand why that argument continues. At home, do you not have seperate places where you put your socks, underware, pants and shirts? Or do you just open a door or drawer and chuck'em in all messed up? I doubt it. It's the same thing here, and here things will be organized. ------------------ burkey FlyerTalk Miles Moderator The Buzz American Airlines [email protected] [This message has been edited by Moderator1 (edited 08-12-2001).] |
Good Job Burkey!
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mmmm... that sounds a bit like "I am right and you guys are wrong. End of discussion. Period."
mmm... could it be that you not understanding (as you state) why that argument continues means that ... perhaps you could be wrong. I mean... perhaps? maybe? The way I read you is as basically saying "take it or leave it, but this is my final decission". Ok. Fine. Now I know. Whatever you say, Lord of The Locked Threads. Given that you have the power and clearly you will use in the way you want, no matter what the community says, may I suggest that you save yourself time and do not even tell us what you think, but just simply act and lock the threads. If you ignore us long enough, do not reply to these posts and keep locking at will, people will get tired and will not post anymore discussing this topic. Well,... just a friendly suggestion. ------------------ The trouble with resisting temptation is..... that you may not get another chance. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Moderator1: First - Please read the entire thread to date, no where did I oppose the discussion of the role of the moderators on FlyerTalk. I did however make it quite clear there there would be moderators. That was my direct reply to drbala. Second - At the end of the day, the bottom line, take home message is that FlyerTalk Miles is for the discussion of Miles & Points, not whiskey, not kids in first class, not tipping the FA's, and not if overweight people should buy 10 seats or not. All that is for FlyerTalk Travel, peroid. I'm at a loss to understand why that argument continues. At home, do you not have seperate places where you put your socks, underware, pants and shirts? Or do you just open a door or drawer and chuck'em in all messed up? I doubt it. It's the same thing here, and here things will be organized. </font> If Flyertalk miles is only for miles and miles only, either you do not read all the postings or do not apply the same yardstick to all the posting. [This message has been edited by drbala (edited 08-12-2001).] |
Maybe Randy should consider a review process of some sort after the moderators have been on the job for some period of time.... or maybe they should stand for "reelection". Some will no doubt do a terrific job but my guess is that a few will become dizzy with their newfound power and become major pains in the butt.
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I guess I don't know any better then to stay out of this thread so here is my $0.02;
As I recall, we always had moderators, only before July all they could do was post something like this thread belongs in the AA or UA forum. Now there is a title, and a small bit of power with the ability to lock threads. The only real need for moderators was when the thread managed to get nasty, but a lot of those seemed to get worked out by themselves. People would post a reply stating that the first post was not meant to harm or inflame anyone. Few of us here are children and so only very infrequently do we need to be reprimanded or diciplined. IMO I see the role of a moderator similar to that of a police offer directing traffic in a intersection with operating traffic lights, they're in control but its a bit confusing. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Moderator1: [b]...At home, do you not have seperate places where you put your socks, underware, pants and shirts? Or do you just open a door or drawer and chuck'em in all messed up? I doubt it. It's the same thing here, and here things will be organized. </font> Seriously though, isn't the current problem where people are posting everything to the MilesBuzz forum an evidence of the forum's popularity? All other forums where some of these posts should belong don't have enough posters and therefore not enough responses. Does moving a topic to its "correct" forum bring along the traffic that it needs to that forum? It seems that people are posting to MilesBuzz because this is where people get responses. Simply a supply and demand situation. When I see some locked topics, I go read the posts, but I don't go to the new forum to find follow-up messages. Am I one of the norm? My suggestion is to leave the "offending" post for a week or when it gets over 20 responses, then move it to where it belongs. Moderator1, thanks for taking on an un-thankful job. You are helping to set the standards for other moderators, so please understand that the posts regarding the moderators are meant to be helpful. If we didn't care, we wouldn't have bothered to post. After all, if we don't like FlyerTalk, we could move somewhere else. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by drbala: I thought Hitler died long time ago!</font> Don't you think that's a bit much, drbala? |
I'm all for open and honest discussions of issues that affect FTers on this board (e.g. moderators).
However, IMHO, any useful and positive discussions of these issues should include a minimum amount of respect toward all participants, including the moderators. Anagnorisis ("Lord of The Locked Threads) and drbala ("Hitler"): Are these type of references advancing your arguments? I appreciate your opinions, but when they are expressed with provocation such as this, they are diminished. Dudemon: I like your post. If I recall correctly, you were recently the subject of unprovoked nastiness. This incident settled itself fairly quickly with an apology, without moderators. |
I come to FT for information and entertainment. Initially I lurked when I was only seeking mileage opportunites and travel tips. I joined when I found myself enjoying the spirit, humor, and camaraderie of the board.
I look forward to the light-hearted discussions about general travel topics here. Should this take place on the Buzz? I think so, but it ain't my board. I do know I don't follow a thread that is moved. And I think it is ridiculous to lock an interesting thread. The greatest asset of this board is the intelligent and witty group of travelers that comprises it. Encourage them, don't censor them. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ChaseTheMiles: Seriously though, isn't the current problem where people are posting everything to the MilesBuzz forum an evidence of the forum's popularity? All other forums where some of these posts should belong don't have enough posters and therefore not enough responses. Does moving a topic to its "correct" forum bring along the traffic that it needs to that forum? It seems that people are posting to MilesBuzz because this is where people get responses. Simply a supply and demand situation.</font> So it does seem the other FT boards are getting traffic now... granted it was slow in the begining with the introduction of the new FT. ------------------ burkey FlyerTalk Miles Moderator The Buzz American Airlines [email protected] |
"At the end of the day, the bottom line, take home message is that FlyerTalk Miles is for the discussion of Miles & Points, not whiskey, not kids in first class, not tipping the FA's, and not if overweight people should buy 10 seats or not. All that is for FlyerTalk Travel, peroid."
Burkey, Wow. That is strong and harsh, when the overwhelming response of people here is that closing and moving threads -- what I call over-categorization and the zealous enforcement thereof -- isn't working. As I mentioned previously, there are two, not very complicated, fixes: 1. Re-categorization...this is probably a periodic, ever-green process; and 2. Non-enforcement of "misplaced" posts -- allowing the "marketplace" so to speak to determine the fate of a given thread. At this point, ignoring the issue, and even worse, refusing to allow discussion of the issue, isn't an acceptable response for many of us...it only alienates and frustrates people who are trying to contribute to the FT community. In order for a given board to be valuable, it needs volume/activity...MilesBuzz provides a good catch-all for travel and miles oriented topics that don't fit into specific airline/supplier categories, or otherwise aren't trip reports, coupon exchanges, or totally non-traveler related issues which seem to go in Omni (not really sure what those are...but maybe advice on getting a good mortgage, although I am not sure we really care if a post found it's way into the Buzz when it seemingly belonged in Omni). The point is that the new categorization doesn't work; enforcing it only makes matters worse; and silencing the debate just fuels the flames. I would think you would welcome and appreciate the suggestions and take the matters/suggestions up with a higher authority? [This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-12-2001).] |
nologic - Of course we are open to feedback, we want it, however the structure of FlyerTalk is divided into four UBBs, each with its own specific content area. Right now the moderators hands are tied, as we cannot move threads between boards. At first we only moved threads out of MilesBuzz to other forums in FlyerTalk Miles, and left the Travel ones in place. This was a transparent process over the last week or two to most users, except those whom threads we moved.... it wasn't fair to move/close some and not others, simply because we didn't have the ability to do it.
So when the few threads were closed, an email was sent stating that the topic is more appropriate to FT Travel, and the orgional was locked. In the future we, the moderators will repost it in FT Travel by hand since we can't do it automatically. This will make an already over time budget volunteer job for us even more time consuming, but until we get a quicker fix, we're without other option. That's where you all play the biggest part, and that is to follow the format of FlyerTalk, and make your posts in the appropriate board and forum. ------------------ burkey FlyerTalk Miles Moderator The Buzz American Airlines [email protected] ------------------------ Please remember the format of FlyerTalk.com when making posts: FlyerTalk Miles Stick with FlyerTalk Miles for all your miles and points information. FlyerTalk Travel FlyerTalk Travel is the place to bring up all of your general travel questions and comments. FlyerTalk Dining Check out FlyerTalk Dining to learn where the food's good, where it's bad, and how to get there. FlyerTalk Airports Visit FlyerTalk Airports to discuss everything from parking, to the best airport restaurants and shops. |
I don't think that those opposing the present moderation policy should conclude that my (and others) absence of the debate means that we don't agree with the moderators.
My guess is that (as a majority) the contrary is true - those not involved in the discussion here so far might in fact not dissagree about the current moderation policy. I (in principle,not in every detail) agree and hope that, better sooner then later, posts will be posted to the (more) appropiate places. And at this early stage of the the new FlyerTalk concept and the new moderation policy, I can't see this happening fast without 'a strong' moderator hand. This will help also to refind them (using the search function) later on. I am glad that some volunteers do that moderaion work, and myself I will never volunteer for such a (needed) job. |
Moderator 1 wrote "At the end of the day, the bottom line, take home message is that FlyerTalk Miles is for the discussion of Miles & Points, not whiskey, not kids in first class, not tipping the FA's, and not if overweight people should buy 10 seats or not. All that is for FlyerTalk Travel, period. "
Thank you very much. I don't have that much time on my hands so a quick visit to the buzz and the AA forum is usually all I have time for. I check those forums for mileage and AA related issues respectively. Having to wade through allot of none mileage related issues in the Buzz reduces the forums utility for me and obviously I am not alone. When I have more time or I want to research a topic that is not mileage related I will often visit other forums like Travel and trip reports (thank you to all who post their trip reports, good source of ideas and travel inspiration and just plain fun to read many of them). Bottom line is that FT will have more utility for us all if we stick to topics that are related to the forum description (if I wanted to know about tipping FA's would I really think of searching the Buzz first?)As some have difficulty figuring out which forum is the most appropriate one (he wrote while perpetuating an off topic thread http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif ) I think a moderator who will help the forum stay on topic is a great asset to us all. Sure we could have FT without moderators but we have had that and while it was good(Ok great http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) FT with moderators is a better site because it is more organized and thus a more useful site to visit. So let me just add my vote of thanks and my support to the volunteer moderators who do indeed have a difficult and often thankless job. FWIW moving a topic to another more appropriate forum is not censorship IMO (even if it is moved off FT entirely as there are plenty of places on the internet where someone can freely publish their non travel related thoughts) Now, how about moving this topic out of the Buzz http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif [This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 08-12-2001).] |
Rudi,
I appreciate your perspective. Maybe I was too quick to interpret the responses. I clearly don't agree that more separate boards are better, that they save time, improve the quality of the experience/responses, etc., but I would not want to impose my will unilaterally on others, if it wasn't in the majority...so more feedback is needed/appreciated here to better measure the pulse of the "majority". I also would support a moderator/FT position that said: "we hear you and understand your concerns...let's see if we can't get more traction on the Travel boards, and then re-gauge the situation in a few (days, weeks)”, followed by real time traffic monitoring and reporting. IMHO, if the Travel boards don't get a comparable amount of traffic, they will never be as good; and I can't see how they will EVER be as popular/active as the Miles boards, and therefore, as good. [This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-12-2001).] |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mvic:
[B]Moderator 1 wrote "At the end of the day, the bottom line, take home message is that FlyerTalk Miles is for the discussion of Miles & Points, not whiskey, not kids in first class, not tipping the FA's, and not if overweight people should buy 10 seats or not. All that is for FlyerTalk Travel, period. " Thank you very much. I don't have that much time on my hands so a quick visit to the buzz and the AA forum is usually all I have time for. I check those forums for mileage and AA related issues respectively. Having to wade through allot of none mileage related issues in the Buzz reduces the forums utility for me and obviously I am not alone. When I have more time or I want to research a topic that is not mileage related I will often visit other forums like Travel and trip reports (thank you to all who post their trip reports, good source of ideas and travel inspiration and just plain fun to read many of them)." Mvci: This is my feeling EXACTLY. The time required to bounce to other boards inherently inhibits participation, and therefore/quality. More time/experience won't ever change that. Keep the posts as centralized as possible/logical, so one can scan the topic list as quickly/efficiently as possible. |
Nologic, logically traction will not occur in the travel boards if all travel content is posted in the buzz http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
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Once in a while, I guees I need to stoop to logic... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
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nologic
Your postings are so logical and is your handle a subtle satire http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif |
I think that moderators are a good idea for filtering offensive material that may be posted. I do not think that they should lock down harmless threads because they are on the "wrong board". When I come to FT, I don't want to have to go to the miles board check the different forums there and then go over and check the travel boards. Too much time too little patience. I say as long as the topic is about the travel industry in general let it be posted.
People want simplicity, and 50 super specific boards instead of 5 general boards won't cut it. My reccomendation would be to let the moderators control offensive material only, and only lock down threads which may contain offensive topics. They should not stop arguments, move topics or lock down threads otherwise pertaining to travel. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rudi: I don't think that those opposing the present moderation policy should conclude that my (and others) absence of the debate means that we don't agree with the moderators. My guess is that (as a majority) the contrary is true - those not involved in the discussion here so far might in fact not dissagree about the current moderation policy. I (in principle,not in every detail) agree and hope that, better sooner then later, posts will be posted to the (more) appropiate places. And at this early stage of the the new FlyerTalk concept and the new moderation policy, I can't see this happening fast without 'a strong' moderator hand. This will help also to refind them (using the search function) later on. I am glad that some volunteers do that moderaion work, and myself I will never volunteer for such a (needed) job.</font> |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by nikbruno: I do not think that [moderators] should lock down harmless threads because they are on the "wrong board". </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">When I come to FT, I don't want to have to go to the miles board check the different forums there and then go over and check the travel boards. Too much time too little patience.</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I say as long as the topic is about the travel industry in general let it be posted. </font> If you want general travel industry news, go to Yahoo and set up a customized news page. FT is specifically for FF tips. <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">People want simplicity, and 50 super specific boards instead of 5 general boards won't cut it.</font> Flyertalk was created precisely to share insider information, not for general FF questions that can be answered at each airlines' Web site. [This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 08-12-2001).] |
It seems to me, that the people of flyertalk are expressing opinons and ideas and when we do so we are told that "this is the way it will be, end of story" and also, While it may not have been the intention to offend, (and I am sure it was not) I know I would have been offended if a Moderator replyed to a quote of mine by saying "Sorry Kiddo".
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My opinion is that if a thread cannot be moved to another forum (e.g., Miles to Travel), it should not be closed.
What purpose is served by closing a thread? It doesn't save time for those who read only a few boards, because the locked thread is still there (until it gets overtaken by more recent threads). Even on PlaneBusiness, which has some pretty hefty moderation, the moderators would never close a thread due to mis-placement. They always move the thread (actually a copy), or if there is already another thread on the appropriate board, they cut & paste the posts of the closed thread into the appropriately placed thread if the posts are worthwhile. That's no easy task, and they are volunteers as well! I don't believe splitting up into four separate boards did any good at all. The only useful board outside of Miles & Points is TravelBuzz, which is basically the old General TravelTalk but without as much traffic. Many of the new boards have a handful of posts, most of which are "Wow, cool, a whole board just for ..." BTW, I consider myself to be an organized person. Yet all my underwear and socks are in the same drawer. The time required to separate the two is not worth it, and there is a strong correlation between that and the new FT categorization! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif |
In responding to nikbruno's point, essxjay writes:
>>What you deem harmless is a pain-in-the-neck to many on FT. That's why the outcry for moderators ensued. As one of the more vocal to advocate moderation on the board (see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000232.html and http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000311.html and others), I dispute that statement. For many, including myself, the cry for moderation was a plea to keep the discussions polite. This was prompted by and large by about five individuals who regularly stretched (and oftentimes, IMO, exceeded) the limits of civility here. By the way, I do agree that off topic posts are a pain in the neck, but I have never advocated moderation for that reason (at least that I'm aware of!) >>Most FT long-timers do not have the time to poke through irrelavent threads such as what tends to turn up in The Buzz. I personally dislike like the new organization of FlyerTalk. I haven't been over to any of the other boards besides FlyerTalk Miles since the first couple of days after the separation. It's a hassle. >>If you want general travel industry news, go to Yahoo and set up a customized news page. FT is specifically for FF tips. The banner on this board reads "The world's most popular frequent flyer community." If it's a community, doesn't the community get to decide what it's going to discuss? (If we don't, change the banner...) Or did you mean FT Miles is specifically for FF tips? >>People want simplicity, and 50 super specific boards instead of 5 general boards won't cut it. >Sorry, kiddo. You've got it all backwards. Flyertalk was created precisely to share insider information, not for general FF questions that can be answered at each airlines' Web site. I happen to agree with the original poster, but I wonder if you meant "FT Miles" when you posted this. [This message has been edited by dgolds (edited 08-12-2001).] |
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