I agree with Burkey, Essxjay, Rudi, and all of the others who have (both before and since the FT board was reorganized) called for more discipline in the posting.

Because Buzz is the first board we see, it seems to be the place where many (and newer posters in particular) seem to think any and everything should be posted. NOT!

Buzz has always been about MILES, MILES and nothing but MILES. Before the time of many newcomers, when it became overloaded with daisy-chains, congas, etc. for miles, we asked for and got a new forum: S.P.A.M. With the recent reorganization we got the forum dedicated to Mileage Runs. All were a needed and successful effort to put the MILES socks in one drawer and underwear in another. But all are Clothing

But the recent Buzz postings about drinks, tips, bare arms, elbows, weight, tray tables, seat backs, FA call buttons, etc (you name it) are no more about miles than … (name you own comparison – mine would not be PC).

JS: You post on PlaneBusiness when you want to air your views about the airline business. You use the various specific airline forums there. Why is so hard to do the same in both posting and seeking knowledge from this board. I have enjoyed reading your posts there and mostly agree with you (both NYC). But you must use wide drawers so you can group socks and underwear together. For me, only in hotels.

I want to back up the Moderators in their efforts to better organize this FT board and these forums. I too wish you could move with a link. That seems to me to be essential.

OK, here are my observations so far:

1. Most people don't give a **** about these issues. I have to believe that hundreds of people have posted to FT over the past few days, but only 36 have people have commented in this and other related threads. Compare that amount with the number of people that have posted to the 500,000th post thread.

2. So far, without a doubt, the vast majority of people who do care are AGAINST "aggressive" moderation, and the sister issue of high vs. low categorization, or at least are FOR the concept of the Buzz as a broader vs. narrower catch-all.

The "AGAINST" people also seem more emotional about their concerns than the FOR people.

3. To try and quantify the responses I have attempted to tally the results; providing for a somewhat liberal interpretation of voter intent, after allowing for a few hanging chads, I report the following preliminary results:

AGAINST AGGRESSIVE MODERATOR INTERVENTION: 22

FOR AGGRESSIVE MODERATOR INTERVENTION: 9

UNDECIDED OR TOO CLOSE TO CALL: 5

3. Most of the people in the "for" camp are older FT members (in FT membership terms).

That’s how I see it so far.

AGAINST AGGRESSIVE MODERATOR INTERVENTION: 22

Make that 23!

All of this controversy is really the result of what used to be General Traveltalk now being on the Travel board. I suspect people now have the habit of posting stuff to Buzz that they would have posted to General Traveltalk in the past (although there was always plenty of random stuff in Buzz).

Given that Randy has decided to reorganize the boards as he has, it can only make sense to try to enforce some order to the system. If the Travel board withers away, then I suppose he might rethink the organization. But it seems to me the last thing we should do is to attack the moderators (not everyone is doing this but some are).

While there can be some genuine debate about what should be in MilesBuzz, there can be little question the threads that have been shut down don't fit within the definition of MilesBuzz. I also find it curious that there is criticism that the moderators have not shut down every questionable thread. That would surely have led to even greater discontent. It would appear that some people are upset that THEIR threads have been shut down. To the extent the moderators have become reluctant to shut down other threads, I think they should just go ahead, exercising their best judgment.

One reason to close a thread is to discourage people from posting in the wrong forum. (Long-run versus short-run incentives.) Of course, it may just discourage them from posting at all. FWIW, I also prefer the old structure and also wish moderators could move threads to the travel board.

MagMile's two previous posts are excellent and I agree.


"All of this controversy is really the result of what used to be General Traveltalk now being on the Travel board. I suspect people now have the habit of posting stuff to Buzz that they would have posted to General Traveltalk in the past (although there was always plenty of random stuff in Buzz)."

Definitely agree. The General Travel Talk Forum being moved seems to have posed a problem for many posters. Maybe, as suggested before, have a General Travel/Mileage Talk forum that is "cross present" as is the Omni Forum?

"Given that Randy has decided to reorganize the boards as he has, it can only make sense to try to enforce some order to the system. If the Travel board withers away, then I suppose he might rethink the organization. But it seems to me the last thing we should do is to attack the moderators (not everyone is doing this but some are)."

Definitely agree, again. I mentioned the agressive comments towards moderators on the first page of this thread ("Lord of the Locked Rings" and "Hitler") and I felt they lacked the mutual respect needed to advance a serious discussion. My feelings apply equally to comments posted by moderators; essxjay's "sorry, kiddo" comment (see above) was surprising.

"While there can be some genuine debate about what should be in MilesBuzz, there can be little question the threads that have been shut down don't fit within the definition of MilesBuzz. I also find it curious that there is criticism that the moderators have not shut down every questionable thread. That would surely have led to even greater discontent. It would appear that some people are upset that THEIR threads have been shut down. To the extent the moderators have become reluctant to shut down other threads, I think they should just go ahead, exercising their best judgment."

Very well said, MagMile.


[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 08-13-2001).]

Look essxjay, I was posting my opinion per the original topic "Do we need moderators?". I was expressing my dislike for the changes to the FT boards, I do not need to be criticized in such an offensive way ("sorry kiddo") for an opinion that many others agree with. If we can't have a civil discussion, why hold one at all?

I am in favor of organization and having threads in the proper place, but in my opinion the actions of the moderators thus far have been excessive.



[This message has been edited by nikbruno (edited 08-13-2001).]

I dislike seeing so many closed threads because they are placed in the wrong thread. In fact, I seem to be drawn to these locked threads out of curosity.... I do think that are moderators should direct posters to the right forums without locking a post. We have all seen someone poilitley say " you' receive better answers in the UA forum" why can't moderators just be people designated to remind people when the post out of place. I think alot of the "lost" posts occur when someone is new to FT. When I search the FlyerTalk Trip Report board, along with the great reports, I often find airline specific questions posted by people new to FT..... I would suggest moderators be used to re-direct by suggestion (I understand you cannot physically move them) instead of closing threads that do have good info.

PS. I am a little surprised at the dismay over having to sift through information on this board..... It doesn't take that much time to read the thread title and read or not read accordingly.....,.

I'm all for aggressive action on the part of the moderators as long as it is consistently applied. What I don't want to see is random intervention, so that one irrelevant thread is locked/moved while another stays beneath the radar.

Post your thread in the right place to begin with and it won't be closed or moved.

I guess what we're seeing is that there are basically two types of people in this world (I won't label them)...for some, order is essential to satisfaction and peace of mind (I think my wife falls into this category); for others, order is not very relevant, and convenience/functionality are what's important.

So far, functionality is winning over order by approximately 2:1, but I would hazard to guess that the two "types" are probably evenly divided. Just going out on a limb here.

nologic - Thanks for taking the tally, but again, posts that are off topic will be moved. As long as there is a FlyerTalk Travel or other area for non-mileage related posts to go, that's what is going to happen.

------------------
burkey
FlyerTalk Miles Moderator
MilesBuzz
American Airlines
[email protected]
------------------------
Please remember the format of FlyerTalk.com when making posts:
FlyerTalk Miles
Stick with FlyerTalk Miles for all your miles and points information.
FlyerTalk Travel
FlyerTalk Travel is the place to bring up all of your general travel questions and comments.
FlyerTalk Dining
Check out FlyerTalk Dining to learn where the food's good, where it's bad, and how to get there.
FlyerTalk Airports
Visit FlyerTalk Airports to discuss everything from parking, to the best airport restaurants and shops.

From the FlyerTalk.com Rules&Guidelines:

And:

------------------
burkey
FlyerTalk Miles Moderator
MilesBuzz
American Airlines
[email protected]
------------------------
Please remember the format of FlyerTalk.com when making posts:
FlyerTalk Miles
Stick with FlyerTalk Miles for all your miles and points information.
FlyerTalk Travel
FlyerTalk Travel is the place to bring up all of your general travel questions and comments.
FlyerTalk Dining
Check out FlyerTalk Dining to learn where the food's good, where it's bad, and how to get there.
FlyerTalk Airports
Visit FlyerTalk Airports to discuss everything from parking, to the best airport restaurants and shops.

I've been lurking on FlyerTalk for about two years now I guess. So I don't know if that makes me a newcomer or not; certainly to posting.

I think it's a good thing to encourage threads to be posted where they best fit. The unfortunate thing is that they can't be moved between these separate boards. So I'd like to join in with someone's earlier suggestion that a link to the thread, once it is opened in the proper place, be added to the original thread before the thread is locked.

One thing to keep in mind for the folks who are upset about this is that most board software starts misbehaving when the number of posts starts getting unwieldy. So keeping posts in their proper place, as much as possible, will help keep performance at its peak in this the most popular of the boards.

I like the Miles area being kept on topic. I think the problem is that threads can't be moved, so it's a fairly disruptive process. I think once that hurdle got overcome (if it ever is) and people grow accustomed to looking in FlyerTalk travel, people will calm down again.

Just so you don't think that I'm far too agreeable on things, I'll put my malcontent hat on for a moment. Does anyone else thing that FlyerTalk Dining and FlyerTalk Airports especially wouldn't be much better rolled into the FlyerTalk Travel section? Nobody ever seems to post there. Questions go asked and unanswered. It's a pain to go to my 50th board (exaggration, I know) unless I have a specific question to ask. If I do, I post -- and since no one else wants to go to the 50th board, it's never answered.

I mean, the average number of topics per board on FlyerTalk Airport is 2.77. That's looking at all posts, ever. Isn't that a wee bit low?

The current FT is closer to having an individual drawer for each sock in four separate cabinets on four different floors than the above analogy.

Again, I think most of the problem is having the four unlinked boards; people would be much more likely to use all *Buzz if it didn't require the extra navigation (I don't think there will ever be a use for the dozens of new forums, e.g. one for each airport is such overkill). Given how excruciatingly slow FT usually is, the extra clicks are not insignificant.

Just for the record, since I have been very quiet over the last four days. I am on the road, and "moderating" has been difficult due to connection limitations. My support for Burkey and Essxjay's efforts are complete.

All three of the moderators have full time jobs and other lives. Moderating is not easy, as I'm sure all of you have observed. Constructive criticism is encouraged. Personal attacks don't help the community or add legitimacy to a contrarian position.

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Craig6z
Buzz & United Moderator
[email protected]

You have got it all backwards! Since there are nobody to moderate the moderators they can use derogatory sentences as much as they like... and they do.

In general, most people who volunteer to be moderators are those who are least suitable. Also a classic to (1) try hard to become a moderator, (2) misuse your power, and then (3) tell everyone that you really are using all your spare time to help everybody. Oh please, I am getting so sick of this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

On a side note I watched a documentary on Hitlerjugend last night, and I did draw some lines between that and current events.

[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 08-13-2001).]

I agree 100% Who is going to control the moderators who use offensive language ?

Goldlust
You have summarized the situation brilliantly. Moderators have a moral resposibility to be polite, use polite language and avoid controversial issues. If they cannot fulfil these roles, they are dismal failures and should give way to better suited persons. Perhapsthe boss Randy should intervene and gently suggest to the moderator/s to use less offensive language.

That's the funniest thing I've ever read on FT. It's a good thing none of us in the AAMI camp tried using wire hangers in the house!

In all seriousness, why is this discussion in "suggestions"? It seems to me that this location was chosen precisely because its a low-traffic area and the discussion is more likely to die a quiet death here.

A quick poll: how many of those who posted here (either before or after the threads were moved from buzz) had ever even looked in this forum before?

I never had, and from the paucity of topics, it seems not many others had, either.

You are exactly right. The threads were moved here because hardly anyone goes in to the suggestions area (this partly because when suggestions are made, we are either ignored, told that the suggestion isnt the correct way of doing things, or we are spoken to like we are 2 year olds who need to be reprimanded)
I think the moderators are hoping that the thread dies down.
I am not against moderators, maybe they are needed...especially when people get out of hand, but it seems to me that the moderators are carrying this a little to far and are on a power trip and they are not even moderating the things that need to be moderated.

See this is exactly my point, why is such a popular topic moved from the largest forum to a dead one that no one would ever think of visiting?? (unless of course they actually have some suggestion)

Perhaps a ModeratorBuzz forum should be created for all discussion pertaining to them???

MilesBuzz is not the place for discussion or to make suggestions, since I assume, that is what some people are trying to do, rather than complain.

If you don't like the navigation, or the forum layout, Suggestions is where to do it.

A link and notice was posted in MilesBuzz of where to continue this discussion on moderators and moderation. Additionally, also posted in MilesBuzz was how future posts would be moved.

------------------
burkey
FlyerTalk Miles Moderator
MilesBuzz
American Airlines
[email protected]
------------------------
Please remember the format of FlyerTalk.com when making posts:
FlyerTalk Miles
Stick with FlyerTalk Miles for all your miles and points information.
FlyerTalk Travel
FlyerTalk Travel is the place to bring up all of your general travel questions and comments.
FlyerTalk Dining
Check out FlyerTalk Dining to learn where the food's good, where it's bad, and how to get there.
FlyerTalk Airports
Visit FlyerTalk Airports to discuss everything from parking, to the best airport restaurants and shops.

To be added in the "count" and to add my two new pennies...

I am 100% in favor of moderators (fwiw).

But I must say that I am little confused with essxjay's posts. There is a difference between posting as "essxjay" the FT'er and "essxjay" the Moderator. I appreciate burkey and craig6z's separate moderator handles to distinguish their posts.

The quote above by 100000 is completely rough and unfair. W/o a two-handled essxjay you don't know if that comment is coming from her as a moderator or as an FT Community member. Because there is a difference.

A burkey post saying, "chexy, wanna put back a number of cheesesteaks from Pat's?" should only be posted by burkey and not Moderator1. And the handle craig6z should post "yo chexfan, I sent the SWUs to you yesterday."

I believe that this is the root for 100000's correct but misdirected comment above.


Simple, b/c this is where it belongs. I read the title as a suggestion in "dropping the moderators." I see no problem with this thread in suggestions. And I do not feel that Buzz! should be a catch-all b/c it is at the top and a "large forum".

Perhaps I am a geek (well, I have lived in France for 14 years), but I regularly read the Suggestions Forum - it seems (to me) like a very good way of participating in the FT community.

I agree with chexfan's post. It would be helpful for moderators to use their moderator handle when doing just that (Moderator1 and Moderator2 do this).

I, too, am against "Buzz" being a catch-all forum (and I say this as a repentant poster, having posted some things to "Buzz" in the past that really didn't belong there).

Goldlust:

On the face of your statement made above and quoted below, I must politely disagree. Would you care to elaborate?

On a side note I watched a documentary on Hitlerjugend last night, and I did draw some lines between that and current events.

[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 08-14-2001).]

While I absolutely agree with the general concept of freedom of expression for ALL and that dgolds is quite correct in outlying the actual primary impetus for the new moderated format, please recall that Randy has himself already tried to address this particular issue, headon, from the very outset in his efforts to bring the very best of all possible worlds to FTers worldwide! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000270.html

---

In a sense, are there not in reality, some checks and balances? I think so, at least in that WE kind of suggest, if not legislate the proceedures, Moderators enforce the adopted guidelines, and Randy & Co ultimately judge the Moderators! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Again, as I've previously noted, being a Moderator is a very critical and time consuming position, in which much effort is expended by well intentioned and personally selected voluteers! As I said from the beginning, it is not a job that I'd peersonally ever want - even if there were some form of tangible remuneration - but I would like us to ideally show support for our moderators and we can learn together how to make FT the best possible place for ALL of us! Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Just for the record

1. I do not have any objections to Moderators moving threads to the correct forum as long as they apply uniform criteria to all Flyertalkers

2. I do and will always object to anybody using indiscrete,impolite,inflamatory and curt language. This particularly applies to Moderators who unfortunately live in glass houses while doing a thankless job.

I hope that in this note we wind up this discussion in a positive way.

Well, I found several differents things but the most obvious was the brainwashing. These poor children thought they were doing the right thing falling for their country but they had zero experience, and this seems to be obvious for one or two of the moderators also.

[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 08-15-2001).]

Thanks for explaining your position. I respectfully, and completely, disagree.

Comparing the current efforts of the new moderators to do their jobs with fairness and in unchartered territory has absolutely nothing to with with "poor children", "brainwashing", "zero experience" and the Hitler Youth movement.

Have you ever seen Hitler's own words describing his aspirations for the Hitlerjugend? I see no similarities witn FT moderators.

"My program for educating youth is hard. Weakness must be hammered away. In my castles of the Teutonic Order a youthwill grow up before which the world will tremble. I want a brutal, domineering, fearless, cruel youth. Youth must be all that. It must bear pain. There must be nothing weak and gentle about it. The free, splendid beast of prey must once again flash from its eyes...That is how I will eradicate thousands of years of human domestication...That is how I will create the New Order." -- Adolf Hitler, 1933.

I am not going to join a debate on Hitlerjugend. FWIW, I have read material on it and also Hitler's very own Mein Kampf. Does that make me an expert in Hitlerjugend? Of course not.

Anyway, even if I knew nothing of Hitlerjugend it would not matter. I made a comment about my feelings regarding a documentary I have seen and the moderators on FlyerTalk, in essense that I found both the children in Hitlerjugend and the moderators on FlyerTalk to lack experience (the first on life in general, the latter on moderation and staying at the moral highground a moderator should).

To suggest that I think Hitlerjugend in general has anything to do with FlyerTalk or the moderators (who are adults to my knowledge, whether they act so or not) is completely absurd, and your post illustrates this very well, I think http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
©Goldlust, 2001. All rights reserved.

Ah, you are now providing some insight regarding your original post, in which you wrote "On a side note I watched a documentary on Hitlerjugend last night, and I did draw some lines between that and current events [at FT]." Sorry, but this statement, with no further explanation provided at the time, suggested to me that you did think that Hitlerjugend definitely had something to do with FlyerTalk and the moderators. Maybe I am completely absurd http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif But I'm sure not a mind reader, so I can only take your posts at face value. Maybe you can provide a little more explanantion when you employ inflammatory terms such as Hitlerjugend to describe people or events here on FT.

Just my (absurd) 2 cents http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

P.S. Any "debate" regarding Hitlerjugend (I prefer to call this a discussion) was started by your choice of the word to describe the current moderator situation at FT.

I don't feel you can use a word like this and then claim no responsibilty for the ensuing "debate".


[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 08-15-2001).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Well, now I think I have explained my view-point so that should settle it. I understand that FlyerTalk is big and there was noway for you to know that I often express myself using references from the television and such.

We must all take everyones posts with a grain of salt (I admit I have often not done so with regards to other people's posts) because there is really no way of knowing what they mean, and jumping to conclusions can be "not good."

Also, my use of the word "absurd" was regarding the fact that my original post could be interpreted like this and meant as self-criticism (of my person for lacking to clarify at once).

Now, if we could get away from the Hitlerjugend of the past and back to disgussing the Hitlerjugend of the present here on FlyerTalk http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif (yes, that was a joke)

I fail to see why this thread was moved to "Suggestions" in the first place since it really is not about suggestions, it is opinions on the moderators, and my opinion is that the decision to move the thread here illustrates the quality of the moderators.

Thanks, Goldlust.

I appreciate the clarifications.

On with the discussion about Moderators!

I appreciate that it's a hard job, but I liked FT better without the way moderators are now being used.

I think moderators should be more focused on shutting down threads that become mean-spirited.

I preferred the old buzz. A treasure trove and free-for-all.

But Randy makes the rules. I don't like these changes, though. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Goldlust: As a non-Aryan, I would take great offense to your attempt to draw comparisons, however lighthearted they might be, between the Hitler Youth Movement and the present moderators... but fortunately for you, I am not a moderator. Instead, I will take your very poor choice of analogies and chalk it up to your inexperience.

FewMiles..

------------------
FlyerTalkers' Resources on the Web: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/
Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/AA/
Unofficial oneworld Info Desk: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/oneworld/

As a Dane (I'm not sure whether that is Aryan to you, I have never thought of that) and thus a citizen of a country that unlike Canada was in fact occupied by Germany, I would take great offense to your attempt to voice any claim of knowledge as to my experience.

Goldlust

[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 09-15-2001).]

Moderator and especially Moderator1 is a censor, a tool of oppression used by an authoritarian regime to suppress the voices of general masses.

This is because only some forums are read by most members and lurkers. By pushing undesirable threads into "suggestions" moderators (incorrectly) think that they can shut them up. They may be unaware that they are breaching the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution...

Essxjay,

Your calling a memeber of this board as Kiddo is highly offensive to most members of this board! Please do NOT exceed your rights as a moderator by becoming a filthy gutter crawler who calls people names just because she cannot come up with a convincing enough argument against their theory.

[This message has been edited by Spider (edited 08-15-2001).]

This post was caused by the board's malfunction. It was supposed to be an edit of my previous post.

[This message has been edited by Spider (edited 08-15-2001).]

I learned (on this FlyerTalk Board - thank you) that the 'US constitutional freedom of speech' has nothing/little to do with the freedom of private (non-governemental) organizations/individuals freedom to put up restrictive 'regulations/limitations/rules' how to communicate and what is/should be tolerated and what not.