This is probably because these matters were never taken any further into the legal system or they were quickly hushed up by the privately owned media, since the court rulings were unfavourable to them.

BTW, Rudi, with all due respect, I am a bit surprised that a freedom loving Swiss person as yourself speaks up in defence of censorship and oppression. After all, Switzerland is one of the very few countries in the world that allows drug use...

Would you stop it already?

Amendment 1 of the U.S. Constitution prohibits the imposition of Congressional (read: Federal) restrictions on the press, religion, and speech.

It has no bearing on the rules of a private forum or entity. End of story. Please stop using that argument.



[This message has been edited by SuperSlug (edited 08-15-2001).]

After all, Switzerland is one of the very few countries in the world that allows drug use...

yes ... I admit (but don't regret) ... that my family ... for generations ... has been and still is ... in the alcohol (beer and wine) business ... and I also like, from time to time, to smoke a (cuban) cigar ...

Well, Goldlust, given that your country was invaded by Nazi Germany during the war, I am surprised at how casually you toss around terms like Hitlerjugend and compare moderators to that. IMHO, such comparisons belittle those who suffered as a result of that regime. But then again, I bow to your experience. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif It is your opinion in the end and not mine - I disagree with you, that is all.

Cheers,
FewMiles..

------------------
FlyerTalkers' Resources on the Web: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/
Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/AA/
Unofficial oneworld Info Desk: http://fewmiles.tripod.com/oneworld/

Again, you do not know if the post was made by essxjay the FT'er or essxjay the Moderator.

But does that really matter? I mean, she has the same handle not a seperate one like the other moderators, so any of her posts could easily be confused for either being posted by ESSXJAY the moderator or ESSXJAY the FT'er. But aside from that, isn't Kiddo...(no matter which ESSXJAY it came from) a little disrespectful? I'm not saying she meant it that way, but it sort of came across that way.

Not nearly as disrespectful as how Spider referred to essxjay in his post.

BTW, I'm not the only one who noticed that, immediately following the "filthy gutter crawler" reference, Spider proceeded to call her someone "who calls people names just because she cannot come up with a convincing enough argument against their theory," am I?

I sure hope that we're very soon reaching the point where everyone finally tires of this kind of "stuff!"

Have a great night all! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Doc,

It's morning here and I'm already tired! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I think the tone here is way too heated.

I would hope we could allow for differences of opinion without personal attacks.

Frankly, I have felt attacked personally for having spoken up here and made the case for what I think is a better way (without attacking others), and I have felt “alienated" by others…and that's too bad...

Why is this getting so heated? Probably because it touches on that precious principle of free speech.

Therefore, while it may be "legal" because this is a private community, this policy is indeed Censorship in Action, pure and simple.

And surely, this violation of the “principle” of free speech -- particularly for inoffensive remarks -- triggers an emotional response for many.

But please keep in mind, that this is a travel bulletin board...not a government...or an army...or a religion.

In addition, please keep in mind that email can be an overly harsh form of expression, and the interpretation of positions can be easily exaggerated.

Except for the most egregiously offensive remarks, I don’t think personal attacks are appropriate here, and I think people’s differing opinions should be welcomed and even encouraged.


[This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-16-2001).]

Wow, you people are all fired up about so little here!

Moderators are needed here. This was more than proven during several 'events' in the past 2 years. If you weren't 'here' to witness them, or do not know to what I refer, then you have no business arguing for or against Moderators.

Moderators should move threads to more appropriate forums. Threads that are 'fringe' can hang around. FWIW, I didn't see this thread until is was moved to 'Suggestions' as 'The Buzz' has become and overcrowed dumping ground that I no longer frequent (similar to OMNI).

Goldlust, your comparisons are out of line. I am offended by your comparisons. My family was terrificly affected by the things of which you write...and to compare them to our Community here is absolutely inappropriate.

Imagine if all the energy you people spend debating Moderators could be put towards something productive...like a volunteer program?

Sincerly,

Dorian



------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - acquired by nFT
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber

Rudi posted:
I learned (on this FlyerTalk Board - thank you) that the 'US constitutional freedom of speech' has nothing/little to do with the freedom of private (non-governemental) organizations/individuals freedom to put up restrictive 'regulations/limitations/rules' how to communicate and what is/should be tolerated and what not.

How ironic that Rudi learned this from FT. If the discussion from which he gleaned this knowledge were to start today, the moderator would immediately close the thread with the message "This off topic post has been moved to the Constitutional Law forum."

Its too bad the current structure will make FT a less valuable resource over time.

My thoughts exactly. Except you can already see the decline.

I, too, am frustrated by the moderators' movement of threads. I don't believe that this is what most of us had in mind when we were calling for moderators. We wanted some of the flame wars to be doused. A couple of goofballs got loose in FT and spoiled things for a lot of people, and those are theinstances where there was a public outcry for FT moderators.

On the other hand, I have on numerous occasions reminded posters to post in the "correct" forum. One of the great attributes of FT is the organization of the board and the archives. If you don't believe that, go take a look at one of the other FF boards, www.frequentflier.com . While there often is interesting information posted there, it becomes useless in a matter of hours because there is absolutely no organization to the board. Everything is posted in one forum.

So, the movement of threads and the organization of the board are necessary evils. A more sophisticated board attracts more sophisticated users and better information, and ultimately benefits all of us.

But perhaps there is a middle ground, at least with respect to the Buzz topics, which seems to draw the most fire. Perhaps the definition of Miles Buzz could be tweaked so that it was more of "FlyerTalk Buzz", which is how I always thought of it anyway.

Rudi,

My admiration for you never cease growing.

Toxa

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

cactuspete said:

"...go take a look at one of the other FF boards, www.frequentflier.com . While there often is interesting information posted there, it becomes useless in a matter of hours because there is absolutely no organization to the board. Everything is posted in one forum.

...Perhaps the definition of Miles Buzz could be tweaked so that it was more of "FlyerTalk Buzz", which is how I always thought of it anyway."

CP, I think these are great comments/suggestions.

I hope people don't feel that I am or have been advocating anarchy and the absence of any structure.

In fact, I have said on a couple of occasions that establishing the “ideal” organization/structure for this community (as if such a Platonic ideal actually exists?) is probably more of an art than a science, something which inherently evolves based on trial and error.

I view what we’re going thru as part of that process. My only true frustration is with the suggestion that there’s something wrong with providing feedback/suggestions on how this is working and therefore the stifling of the discussion itself. This is done both directly and by some of the harsh/insulting/demeaning words that have been directed towards some of the posters who have challenged the current status quo.

CP, I also applaud your suggestion of expanding the definition of MilesBuzz to a more general Buzz…

Somewhat more controversially, perhaps, I would also encourage FT “management” to lighten up on overall topic enforcement, because the "market" seems to do a good job of taking care of itself here...but would ask moderators to edit offensive posts (even here, there probably will be some disagreement over the definition of "offensive"), and to otherwise help instill civility when the tone starts to disintegrate.

My presumption is that very few people really intend to be mean-spirited in their responses, and unintentionally lapse into something which is overly aggressive/hostile…to the extent I have done any of that I certainly apologize…I would think most of us would accept/welcome a response from a moderator, as an experienced independent observer, highlighting disturbing elements of a post and asking if the poster really meant to go that far, or advising that the way something was presented could be construed as a personal attack…?

[This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-17-2001).]

I'm a relatively new user to FT, and this is my (humble) opinion. It seems to me a large part of the problem is not so much whether there are locked threads, but why there are so many "off-topic" posts. I think if this issue was dealt with it would help reduce the number of "off-topic" (and hence locked) posts.

From what I see and have read in this forum, it seems that a large part of the reason as to why there are off topic posts is because people only read one or two of their favorite forums when they log into FT. Everyone has their favorite and most often visted forums. I do too. I am quite guilty of often logging in and only checking MilesBuzz, Community, SPAM, AA & NW. However, I do make a point to spend some time in the "less popular" forums. Have you ever read a post in the "Women Travlers" section of FT Travel? How about the FT Airports forum? Have you helped someone find a good restaurant in your city in FT Dining?

I think the community as a whole would be all the more richer if everyone made an effort to spend a little time in some of the "less popular" forums. They exist because there is a need for information under those forums/topics. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to help someone avoid a tourist trap, find a good restaurant, or determine which airport has the best lounge. I just want to personally challenge everyone to spend a little time in the "less popular" areas. Yes, we all have limited time, and don't have ability to visit every board every time (I'm not saying that anyone should), but lets all try to expand where we visit just a bit. Once a week (or more, if you visit FT daily), try to visit one new forum you've never visited before, or one you don't visit very often.

Also, I think it is great to discuss topics such as this. Only through discussion and feedback and constructive criticism (which is different than complaining) can improvement take place. However, I think it is important that whether we agree with them or think they are doing a good job or not, we support our moderators. Personally, it's not a job I would want to touch with a 39 1/2 ft pole, but they are just doing their jobs, whether we like it or not.

Lyss710 said:

"...it seems that a large part of the reason as to why there are off topic posts is because people only read one or two of their favorite forums when they log into FT... Have you ever read a post in the "Women Travlers" section of FT Travel?"

Great observation: you can try and force-change behavior; but, I think that is fighting an uphill battle. Personally, I spend a fair amount of time bouncing around too...but:

1. The majority of people won't spend the time...that's just a fact, or at least I believe it to be a fact, and we can wait a year until it becomes a fact;

2. If the above is true, are we better off as a community...when we have a question and it gets short attention because it's parked in a less trafficked place than otherwise could be the case?

I guess some believe that we can/will change enough people's behavior over time so that this won't be a practical problem. And, for many, this issue doesn't bother them, because they are confident they will get their own questions/issues answered, and the "clutter" is more offensive to them. In fact, one person said he/she isn't looking to have questions answered, and the implication (I may have it wrong so please correct me) is/was that he/she only wants to deal and interact with people that participate in this close-knit way (please don't infer anything but a descriptive intent here).

So, what is “value” on FT?

We have a lot of people with a lot of different interests and definition of “value”...which is what makes it so hard to discern what works best.

Still, I have a hard time coming down on the side of less information for the most number people.

No!

I will not be shut up by opressed subjects of the regime that has turned them into such slave spirited souls.

It certainly is sad and ironic. One of my first if not THE 1st post was in support of RUDI. ): I did not know him at the time, yet based on his posts I supported him. I do not believe that he knows me well enough personally to make such a dam*ing opinion of me. I am merely standing up for civil rights on this (so far reasonably liberal) board. I am really disappointed that there is so much racist element along with the "blind non-Aryan" element who believe that censorship is in their best interest.

Censorship is not welcome anywhere in the free world, including on FlyerTalk.


This message has been edited due to Flyertalk editing a common word such as dam*ning. Da*n censorship!

[This message has been edited by Spider (edited 08-18-2001).]

Not being personal, IMHO Moderator1 appears to invite resentment after resentment from various members for a number of his/her actions in deleting/shutting up/censoring threads and use of intemperate language. I have no personal knowledge of Moderator 1 and hear only good words about him/her from established members of FT. I suggest that Moderator 2 takes over his/her role until the heat dies down.

All right, let's get this straight, threads have been moved because they have been posted in the wrong or inappropriate forums. They are still open for discussion, so go discuss away in those threads if you want. FlyerTalk.com's policy is to move such mis-posted topics, and that's the way it is, and will continue to be until any such notice from Randy Petersen.

Those of you who disagree, thank you for your comments and suggestions, they are appreciated, welcomed, and desired. Furthermore they are being assesed by the people around here who make the REAL decisions, not by me or any other moderator.

------------------
burkey
FlyerTalk Miles Moderator
MilesBuzz
American Airlines
[email protected]
------------------------
Please remember the format of FlyerTalk.com when making posts:
FlyerTalk Miles
Stick with FlyerTalk Miles for all your miles and points information.
FlyerTalk Travel
FlyerTalk Travel is the place to bring up all of your general travel questions and comments.
FlyerTalk Dining
Check out FlyerTalk Dining to learn where the food's good, where it's bad, and how to get there.
FlyerTalk Airports
Visit FlyerTalk Airports to discuss everything from parking, to the best airport restaurants and shops.

Spider, nice to have you back to spice things up a bit!

For the record, my "Would you stop it already" comment was not an entreaty for you to stop posting your opinions altogether. In fact, I've found your posts to be quite entertaining, to say the least.

Rather, it was in reference to your constant (mis)use of the First Amendment/"freedom of speech" argument, which we seem to have established has no legal basis in fact as it applies to FlyerTalk.

This "slave spirited soul" (whatever that is) who, I might add, is not feeling very oppressed right now, thanks you for listening! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif I really love your sense of humor! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Keep it up.

I cannot believe you guys are still going on about this?!

The moderators are doing a great job...keeping the flames down and keeping people organized...as clearly this is required for not only newbies but sadly for some FT'ers that have been around a while.

Dorian

Well, Moderator1 has certainly invited a resentment from me that I have never ever held against any other member of this wonderful board. I did not think it would be possible to get me so worked up, so I guess he should have credit for that http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Edit: as I have also stated elsewhere I must now exit the moderator1-discussion since it really is not healthy for me. I think I have made my point, and will now try and ignore all this.

[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 08-20-2001).]

I have to say that connecting in from a dial up modem while on vacation this week has dramatically increased my resolve that fewer categories/clicks make a big difference (improvement!).

After all, this is a site for travelers where many of us are continuously on the road connecting in from a hotel or otherwise over a modem at 56K at best.

This site is already plagued by speed problems as it is.

It/we can't afford to dramatically decrease usability by imposing so many unique destinations.

So, following that logic I am happy posts are more dispersed now and (hopefully) in their proper place.

I can log in now from a crappy dial-up connection and get to exactly what I want to read without have to wade through pages of crap (like Buzz has been up until the past few days when the moderators got it in order).

Luckily I am on a high-speed connection these recent days or I wouldn't even be reading these demented threads about how people don't like clicking and how their brain hurts trying to understand moving between boards.

Get over it. Find your fav airline or other program and post there.

Dorian

Well, I guess we disagree...it depends on how you use FT.

It takes negligible time to wade through what you would call irrelevant posts which otherwise take up all of a single line on the board -- unless you open each of them, which is indeed “wading” -- but I am not sure why you would do that if the topic didn't interest you. Very few topic headings are so tricky so as to dupe people into threads they otherwise find unappealing.

But the proof is the pudding and not in your opinion or my opinion of what's "best": the fact that it indeed takes longer this way, in fact turns people off (not intellectually or emotionally, just in practice) -- based on my judging of the results of what's getting responded to at this point and the traction that posts which have been relegated to these other areas are getting -- and therefore the actual result when applied to the great mass of FT participants is that fewer posts get addressed/answered, outside of the major airlines and MilesBuzz...and that is less “value”, IMO.

Moreover, I don't understand why the airline boards, are allowed to be populated with so many non-mileage related questions if a strict enforcement policy is in place...probably because that would destroy those boards too. I’m certainly not advocating this in that I like the airline boards the way they are, but it is against FT’s current policy to not move all those posts about seats and destinations and meals to FT Travel.


[This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-20-2001).]

Here's one difference between what makes sense for MilesBuzz versus individual airline boards.

The difference with the airline boards is that, e.g., a non-miles United question (how is the lounge at LAX) needs to reach a United-specific audience. Until there is enough traffic for a non-miles United forum as well as the miles one, it makes little sense to try to post United questions elsewhere. However, general travel topics (how is whiskey on int'l flights) don't need to reach a specific audience. They just need to reach enough people. Whether they will do so in TravelBuzz, which is where they should go, is an open question. They did in General Traveltalk in the past. But clearly, TravelBuzz will never get enough traffic if people keep on posting stuff in MilesBuzz. It seems to me worthwhile to give the new organization a try, rather than insisting on posting off-topic in MileBuzz and than complaining about all the locked threads and lack of traffic in Travelbuzz--both of which are at least in part a result of the OT posting.

Is anyone at FT actually listening to these suggestions?? Maybe I am mistaken, but I haven't seen a single post from someone at FT dealing with this issue.

What 'issue'? What is there to deal with? Moderators are here and doing an excellent job. I and other can only hope more are brought on board in short order.

Dorian

------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - acquired by nFT
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber

Our views on the effectiveness and/or roles of moderators may differ, and we're all entitled to those individual opinions.

While systematically denying that a problem exists may be the easiest and most efficient way to prevent a constructive debate, I think that the 5+ threads on the subject that have been started since the moderators made their debut (and the four pages of posts just to this one) would more than suggest that there is indeed an "issue" here.

If there were truly no "issue" and nothing to "deal with," there certainly wouldn't be such a vigorous debate on the subject.

This is not meant to be a jab...but if you haven't been around here for 1+ years then you have little business discussing moderators.

Many of us have seen this site slip to h*ll and begin to recover just in time. Many long time and excellent posters have been lost due to lack of moderation...some have luckily decided to give nFT a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) try now that we have some order.

Dorian

Dorian, somehow I knew that was coming. And no, I don't take it as a jab.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that, being relatively new here, I don't possess the institutional memory to adequately debate whether moderators are needed. In fact, based on my limited experience with some pretty nasty threads, I'll readily admit that they are (and I've posted as such). I don't pretend to know who/what started that particular debate in the first place, or what, in your opinion or that of your contemporaries, FT "used to be" like. Do I wish I were around here back then? Absolutely. In fact, had that been the case, I'd probably be in total agreement with you. Unfortunately (for me, not you) I wasn't, and there's nothing I can do about that.

But I don't think the majority of what's being debated here--movement of threads and how it facilitates or impedes our usage of the boards--necessarily requires that kind of experience. Nor does a discussion about whether or not there's actually an "issue" here.

On the other hand, have you considered that those who haven't been here for more than a year may provide the ability to offer a fresh perspective on things without getting bogged down in the minutiae of times past? I'm not saying that's what I'm doing, but I wouldn't discount that possibility from other "new" members. Just a thought.

Goldlust posted:
You have got it all backwards! Since there are nobody to moderate the moderators they can use derogatory sentences as much as they like... and they do.

In general, most people who volunteer to be moderators are those who are least suitable. Also a classic to (1) try hard to become a moderator, (2) misuse your power, and then (3) tell everyone that you really are using all your spare time to help everybody. Oh please, I am getting so sick of this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

On a side note I watched a documentary on Hitlerjugend last night, and I did draw some lines between that and current events.

===============

Goldlust (and nikbruno) re your posts above I smiled to notice essexjay is ALSO a Moderator on one or two of the other Forums here! That is not noted in his post or profile, which really should be the case surely with all moderators, now and future, for total transparency? I too really wonder whether moderators addresseing others here they appear not to know as "kiddo" is really good policy or manners? And I agree with some others here the second post in this thread appeared to be an attempt by another moderator to say "back off buddy" to a perfectly reasonable new post.

If there were moderators doing their job, that pest of a kid on the Coupon Connection under the long "swap 30,000 Delta miles" thread would have been cancelled as a user under all his names a month back and that thread long closed. He is now allegedly "suing" all kinds of posters there, and if any thread needed the chop, it is that one. Letting it run to over 200 posts is just feeding his mental problem, and it has zippo business being on that or any Forum. It was clearly a very dangerous scam to start with, the kid got caught red handed, yet FT and all its new Moderators seems oblivious to cutting off his posting access.


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/003619.html


[This message has been edited by SkyMiler (edited 08-23-2001).]

My primary concern relates to the language being used by one of the Moderators.

I think that people placed in positions of power should be careful with the language that they use as it sets a boundary of acceptable behaviour on behalf of the board.

I was as concerned as others about some of the abuse last year. I am concerned that using words which are patronising and offensive, such as 'kiddo', will cause the board to descend in to its old ways.

I think that some of the thread closing has been random and I'm not sure productive, but then if they're given that power by the owner of the board, all one can do is to register my protest and move on.

This is that protest. (I have also emailed Randy privately about 10 days ago. I decided to wait before posting.)

[This message has been edited by Markie (edited 08-24-2001).]

My understanding is that there were some bad/vicious events a year or so ago? Since January, when I started posting, things have been pretty tame...not "disintegrating to hell".

To the extent this site was ever "slipping to hell" its not my impression, listening to "old timers", that the problem was due to off topic posts, per se.

My understanding is that problems arose due to some offensive langauage/posts, which is something that I think moderators can/should moderate.

The only thing I experienced that was pretty "wierd" was some lady who made a number of bizzare, irrelevant, off-all-topic posts about Citibank's envelopes and other seemingly silly stuff. She seems to have disappeared before this change, however.

Most of the other problems that I have heard about stemmed from abusive remarks, which I do not support.

Going back say to the month of June, for example, before this change was implemented, what was so bad about what was happpening?

nologic, right on the mark again. The problems (at least as far as the boards that I visit) were with flame wars and inappropriate posts, not topics posted in the wrong forum. And a good many, if not most, of those problems were, IMHO, a direct result of one very prolific poster by the name of ozstamps, who has long since been banished. (BTW, I never did understand all the attempts at secrecy on this board. No sense beating around the bush.)

The issue with moderators is not if, but how.