Kvarko

I can't seem to find any forum dedicated to EU261 (Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, a.k.a. EC261), just ad hoc posts in loyalty-programme-specific forums. Am I missing something, and if not might a dedicated forum be a good idea for generic questions about applicability of EU261 to all the interesting non-airline-specific corner cases?

I suppose it should also cover UK261 (the Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019), since currently the net effect is that the rules (and existing case law) are closely aligned to EU261 (though in the future the case law might conceivably diverge). So maybe the forum should be "EU261/EC261/UK261"!

NWIFlyer

Thank you for your suggestion.

We might also roll Israel into this, which has reasonably strong consumer protections. Canada has its own scheme, different but probably with less teeth than in the EU/UK.

To balance this, many of the nuances of what's claimable and what isn't are airline-specific. There's a very different argument on what constitutes extraordinary circumstances for BA operating at its LHR base where it can swap aircraft and crew around, compared to - say - UA at the same airport. Ditto airlines which fly to obscure airports where it might be more difficult to find an alternative routing under comparable conditions.

Some airlines are easier to deal with than others. The method of putting a claim in, and getting it resolved, may be different.

Each country will also have different enforcement arrangements. The UK has the CEDR arbitration scheme as an option to formal court action. Other countries will have different enforcement options, some more effective than others.

It might be prudent to also think about whether a dedicated thread in an existing forum, or a sub-forum, might be more appropriate than a dedicated forum.

I would welcome further views on this suggestion for our consideration.

NWIFlyer
Community Director

Kvarko

Thank you for your consideration.

I think you're suggesting maybe there should be a forum (I suppose under Travel&Dining?) for consumer protection generally, and then things like EU261/EC261/UK261, the Israeli one, the Canadian one, etc. could have their own threads (I don't know whether FT has any concept of master threads that consolidate key posts/extracts from other threads?). I think that's a reasonable point. I focused on *261 because this has developed a very rich set of case law, with a lot of interesting corner cases, but this may well also be the case in Israel and Canada.

I think you're right that stuff like UA claiming extraordinary circumstances at LHR would probably be best in a UA forum, except if it's some kind of general consideration of the form "can an airline claim extraordinary circumstances at a non-base airport if they couldn't buy fuel".

I agree that enforcement is also of interest. Conceivably this could be done in per-country forums, again except if it's generic, e.g. "what are the mechanisms for people outside the EU(+EEA+CH+UK) to make an EU261 claim?".

How does creation of new forums work? Is there some kind of form to fill in? Is it put to some kind of member vote?

Kvarko

So, um, what are the next steps?

NWIFlyer

As a starting pojnt, we wait for feedback on this thread to see if there's broad support. Setting up an individual forum, or sub-forum, is not a trivial task. We have to be confident there are enough posts to support it. We may need a moderator to oversee it.

There aren't any forms to complete, and there's not a public vote - ultimately the decision is mine, in collaboration with colleagues.

Duke787

I'm of mixed feelings on this.

Currently the information is very spread out and so putting it all in a single forum could be useful. On the other hand, the implementation and execution of EU261 is often airline specific (e.g., how do I apply for EU261 from Delta? does it apply if I'm ex-US, etc., etc.).

I wonder if it makes sense to combine the existing ad-hoc threads in each major airline forum and create a master 'sticky' thread that sits at the top of each major airline forum but is specific to the airline because ultimately at the end of the day, what I care about most is: if I'm flying airline X and have a delay or cancellation, how do I file a claim with airline X, how has airline X generally responded to these claims, etc., etc. -- and if it turns into case law and corner cases, FT isn't going to be able to solve those issues for me

Kvarko

I suppose my perspective is different. From my perspective, while there might sometimes be airline-specific aspects (especially if the airline tries to wriggle out of its responsibilities), the fundamental question is what the law or case law is, and once that's known I'm happy to just take the airline to court myself if necessary, though certainly if there were information about how best to deal with the airline that could be useful.

Something like "does it apply if I'm ex-US" (assuming this is about flights from the USA to the EU/UK/etc.) is not airline-specific, it's country-of-the-airline-specific (though off the top of my head I don't know whether this is the marketing airline or the operating airline).

It is precisely the case law and corner cases that to me are interesting/useful -- the straightforward cases don't need discussion.

But anyway, I think there would be value in a *261 forum (or subforum, don't know the relative "costs").

[For my reference, what are the "major airline forum"s? How many of them are there?]

Mwenenzi

Several forums have long running UK/EU261 threads. Other airline sub forum tend to get random threads. Some of the USA airline threads can have keyboard pseudo lawyers asking "who can I sue" without being aware of the regulations (USA and/or EU-UK). The BA thread is more balanced.

My view is better in the airline sub forums, with a well moderated consolidated annual thread. New thread every year or 2~3 years for threads with few posts.

A consistent thread title, in all forums, would help. Keep it simple, with out cross posts-links to other forums.

• The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261
• [Consolidated] Claiming EU261 Compensation from AC
• Compensations for Cancellations/Delays/Changes - EC 261/2004 MASTER THREAD for AF
• Finnair and EC 261 compensation
• GUIDE: EC261 / EC 261/2004 “EU” complaints, compensation and AA
• Regulation (EC) 261/2004 Delayed flight - Delta Air Lines Definitive Thread
• GUIDE: EC261 / EC 261/2004 “EU” complaints, compensation and TAP
• SAS and EC261/EU261 Claims [merged Discussions]
• Claiming EU flight compensation (EU Regulation 261/2004) - issue with Swiss
• QR and EC261 - experiences
• QR/LH flight cancelled, EU 261?
• and others

Even "compensation" is misleading as at times the $$ from the operating airline is "reimbursement". Is a subtle difference, and must ask the airline the correct question to ensure get $$ back for correct reason.

Kvarko

Here is the specific corner case that prompted this.

1. Flights on EU airline, single ticket, from far-outside-Europe to EU (flight A) and then to UK (flight B)
2. More than 14 days before, airline notifies that flight B is cancelled (no extraordinary circumstances) and reroutes onto flight C
3. Flight C arrives in the UK more than 4 hours after flight B would have
4. Let's assume that flight C arrives on time

Is compensation due under EU261 (or UK261) in this case? The obvious cancellation compensation is not, as it was >= 14 days in advance (see EU261/5(1)(c)(i)). However I've had at least one of those claims companies tell me that yes, it is due owing to the delay w.r.t. the original arrival time. Maybe there's some case law I've missed, though I could not find it on https://flightdelaypay.com/leading-cases/ .

I could ask in the airline-specific forum, but this is not an airline-specific question, and someone who had the same kind of case with a different airline and so know the answer might not be reading that forum. Having a single generic (sub)forum would address that.

Similarly, perhaps one of the airline threads already has the answer, but I have no idea how I'd find it (even if there were advanced search functionality, which there doesn't appear to be, I don't know how I'd construct a query that would find the answer and not bury it in the middle of a million other hits).

WineCountryUA

Another thread -- Best Practices for Filing EC261/2004 ( EU 261 ) and UK 261 Claims Against United?

Most are going to look for advice in the forum of their vendor provider.

While a general depositary of EU261 or similar programs might have value. will it generate enough regular traffic to justify a separate forum == that is my concern. FT's slower forum get weekly posts, multiple posts per day is more common, many 10's post , some 100's. The UA EU261 thread alone has averaged a post every other day.

I would be concerned that a non-vendor specific forum would generate very little traffic and members would not bother to check it regularly, generating even less discussion. A few might be interested in discussing the corner cases, but how will they find that forum? Most will come to FT to address their specific case with their specific vendor.

I would suggest starting with thread in TravelBuzz? or some general forum and demonstrate there is enough interest for a separate forum.

Kvarko

What form should that thread take?

In the meantime, can anyone tell me where to find the detailed rules (/ case law / personal experiences) on assistance/compensation in the case of to-EU travel? I can think of about a million corner cases, e.g.:

• Operating airline was an EU airline, but marketing airline wasn't, or vice-versa
• First leg was operated by a non-EU airline, second leg was operated by an EU airline
  • ... and problem happened on first leg
  • ... or problem happened on second leg
  • ... or problem happened in transit
• First leg was to-EU and second leg was from-EU-to-not-EU (e.g. USA-EU-UK trip; single ticket)

Silver Fox

Brilliant idea. The airline forums can still be referenced for anything that might be airline specific but for the generic approach(es) I think it's a great idea. Documentation of what case law applies in generic cases in one single place would be of benefit to all.

Duke787

If you are looking for case law and detailed rules/analysis, I would suggest that FlyerTalk isn't the appropriate forum -- beyond perhaps recommending a legal firm or entity (like AirHelp) to assist you in your claims.

For the other bullets -- I still think that the airline forums are the best place to find answers to that question. If I fly on RDU - CDG - VIE on a DL ticket but AF metal, the first place I'm looking for an answer to EU261 questions is on the DL forum, seeing what others experienced and who they had to claim with (DL or AF) for delays/cancellations/etc. A general forum would still conclude that you need to go take it up with the airline which puts you back to the airline-specific EU261 threads for insight in who and how to approach an EU261 issue

Kvarko

Hm, well, I respectfully disagree. It should not be necessary to hire lawyers. It should be possible to end up concluding "Article x(y)z interpreted per case C-nnnn/yy means that in this case you can claim X from Y" in this or that situation.

It's interesting you'd go to the DL forum, because my understanding is that the claim is against the operating carrier, not the marketing carrier.

DrMilano

Delta handles the EU261claims for AF/KLM when a US based passenger files a complaint.

Issue with having a case log thread could be copyright infringement citing the law firm that summarized the Courts ruling.