joshua362

Absolutely dead on. WN has a ridiculously generous policy of giving away a free seat (last time I checked ISP-TPA it was $500+ one way) plus any potential boarding denial compensation - largely as a result of media blowback.

WN needs to take a stand and enforce its COS policies uniformly and proactively when the COS doesn't take responsibility for his own actions and non actions.

cheaptimesharetraveler

Well, your first mistake was to wait until all of the other people boarded before moving to a seat to your liking. Your second mistake was telling everyone you had an opportunity to move and didn't.

Steve M

Well, they do. The problem lies with the policy itself, not its enforecement. The policy is that the only people required to purchase a second COS seat (even though it gets refunded) are those that cannot fully lower their armrests while sitting in the seat. It doesn't matter how much of the adjacent seat is occupied by a passenger overflowing the armrest, even if it makes the adjacent seat completely unusable: as long as the armrest is down, then they're not a COS per the policy and not required to purchase a second seat.

I can see why WN made the policy the way it is, as it removes all ambiguity from judging whether or not a pax is COS. But it does put FAs and GAs in a tough situation, where they cannot act in certain situations where common sense would tell most people that they should.

justhere

I thought this too regarding the armrest until I read this on WN.com

How do I know if I need a second seat?
The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats; the width between armrests measures 17 inches. Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat may proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel or receive a complimentary additional seat.

WN says the armrest is the definitve gauge but then goes on to throw an "or" and an "any" in there. Intentional or not, according to this even if your shoulders are broad and encroach on the backrest of an adjacent seat, you may proactively book a second seat.

danielonn

Exactly!!! The policy was not executed properly commensurate with the failure. I wrote in to Customer Care via e-mail, had it documented by the Airport Duty Manager at SJC and a 1800 I Fly SWA agent. I also made a followup call yesterday and they said it would take up to 30 days from yesterday for an Internal research of the problem.

Now I will just wait and see.

danielonn

And the COS encroached on my space hence I read the policy here on FlyerTalk awhile back and I made it clear to the Flight Attendant about the COS. So even if the COS's Business Companion moved to the Middle Seat the COS would encroach on the Business Partners Space giving him less room hence limiting my room as well.

danielonn

Spot on Jeff!!! My ribs were bruised from leaning on the fixed armrest. I have Low Vision and I tell the airline when I reserve my flight that having pre-boarding(which is why I am in the Bulkhead Row) helps as that extra time allows me to familiarize myself with the safety procedures, onboard service, ask the Flight Attendant to go over the drinks as sometimes the magazine has small print etc. I do my part by telling the airline that I need to Pre Board.

Then i arrive at the airport 2-3 hours before to get the Pre Boarding Authorization. I was in 1A due to my Low Vision from Albuquerque so I wanted to keep 1 A to make it easier to deplane and to use the lav.

Also its easier for me to know that the Lav is right in front of me and if tis in the back the Flight Attendant shows me.

Anyways I do not let my disability inconvenience anyone . I had a Corneal Transplant in my Left Eye and a procedure to stop in my Right Eye. My vision is between 20/70 -20/90 depending on the day and my level of tiredness. Sometimes Bright Lights makes it hard in security lines which is why I get assistance through it. I always tell the agent I don't need a wheelchair but somone to guide me that I can follow. Due to depth perception it helps to have someone guide me through long lines.

Once I am through security no problem and if I see the airside is crowded I just take a seat at a cafe by the gate. I'm not blind just low vision and some days are better than others but I ask for Pre- Board for safety as well so I can store my bag safely without rushing to my seat.

I get the window seat for better lighting both from the sun and usually the overhead light is better positioned for me. The airline knew I was pre-boarded at Albuquerque and I stayed seated in my same seat. the COS was not a pre- board as they came on at least 10 minutes into the boarding process.

I had to sacrifice my seat I was settled into fine so be it but I had priority over the new passengers boarding at LAX.

I do not use my disability as an excuse to get preferential treatment. It really helps to have an agent help me through customs etc.

You see the COS had to follow the rules and to me its not fair that I did everything right regarding my Low Vision and I am not a demanding passenger. I just ask for my Coke and Water or whatever and I'm fine.

I am compassionate towards people but on the other hand get irked if a policy is not followed especially after seeing COS passengers getting kicked off. Its not right that the Gate Agent did not board the flight to see the situation. As stated before I would have volunteered to go on a later flight with compensation and transportation to my final destination. The airline could have asked the Traveling Companion to take a later flight.

You see there were opportunities to enforce the policy even before my flight arrived LAX. I am sure they knew the situation when this passenger checked in for the flight and they knew the loads. I even checked online and saw it was all sold out on Southwest.com as the ABQ Ticket Counter Agent stated that it was full from LAX-SJC.

If I had known there was a COS coming on before I would have moved. Also the Flight attendant announced the first three rows are for Pre Board Passengers and Non Pre Boards can move to other seats after the head count of through passengers from the rear. Is it my duty to enforce WN's policies? If so then they should hire and pay me big $$$$. Why didn't he COS Pre-Board then? There was a family in the next bulkhead with a Service Dog and their Kids were in the row behind them.

BTW for my Mental Health taking the $50 is like a slap in the face so I feel good that I contacted Southwest Customer Care so they can retrain the agents, Flight Attendants and look into the COS policy and enforce it.

Please reply and let me know what you think. And please don't bash me because I am giving you all a valuable lesson.

Thanks

Allan38103

Either the flight was sold out, or it wasn't. Couldn't be both; no middle ground here.

Both the FA and pilot said it was sold out, so no other seat was or would have been available. But that's what they usually say on every flight. Speculate all you want, but no FT reader or poster can say whether that was actually true in this case. However, WN can. This is a fact important enough that they should get it right.

Similarly, either the COS passenger did reserve an extra seat ahead of time, or he didn't. Again, no middle ground. No FT reader or poster would have any way to verify this either, and it's not likely that the passenger is around to clear this up. But WN can.

Either way, it's a failure on Southwest Airlines' part. Fifty dollars sounds good.

Yes, this is a "teachable moment."

MSPeconomist

I'm still confused about how, when, and why the OP apparently moved from 1A to 1C.

danielonn

Well its out of my hands now and WN is conducting an internal investigation. I would be happy to share the results(as much as I am allowed to share) and hope to know exactly what took place.

jeffandnicole

Either of these situations are a customer service, and potential media, thunderstorm. Yes, they have their policies, but if word got out to the media, they would be very selective in what is mentioned. You can bet they would say that the COS is required to purchase a 2nd seat. You can bet they probably won't mention the 2nd seat will be refunded to them. And since there was 2 people involved, do they put both on another flight? What if it was the last flight of the day...or the remaining flights were already booked full? Ultimately it was the COS's fault for not buying the 2nd seat, but SW's hands are a bit tied, at least from an overall customer relation standpoint. Yes, they ticked you off. But they're willing to trade ticking one person off, rather than thousands.

That would require to know when the COS arrived at the gate. Did he get off another flight just moments before? Or arrive late (but still within the permitted time)? Everything else is irrelevant...and there's absolutely no requirement anyone must preboard early. How do you enforce a guideline that doesn't exist?

I don't think you're going to find anything to your satisfaction then. They're not going to retrain all their agents because you had an uncomfortable flight.

Steve M

I stand corrected. The policy has apparently changed since the last time I looked at it. They also added the aspect of refunding the extra purchased seat to a COS, even if the flight was sold out. So apparently the policy was revised at some point.


Here's where it gets tricky. What part of the policy, specifically, was not followed? Be specific. Are you saying that the COS attempted to purchase an extra seat in advance, but was not allowed to do so? Or are you saying that the COS didn't buy an extra seat, but identified themselves as a COS to the gate agent, and the gate agent failed to accommodate them?

Those are the only two things that WN is obligated to do, per their policy (in addition to the refund of a purchased extra seat after the flight, if applicable). There is nothing in the policy that requires a COS to identify themselves as such. There is nothing in the policy that requires WN to take any action unless a COS self-identifies. There is nothing in the policy that requires WN to respond to a third party about another passenger being a COS. If you doubt me, go to southwest.com, read the COS policy, and point out where WN has any obligation to take action in the OP's case in the event that the COS does not self-identify.

I think the policy as it's currently written has an obvious problem, as encountered by the OP: if the COS doesn't self-identify, nothing happens. I'm going to take an educated guess that WN legal wrote it this way on purpose, deliberately to take their personnel out of the loop in deciding who is or is not a COS. There have been cases in the past where there's been bad media coverage, lawsuits, and DOT complaints filed when a person was accused of being a COS and thought they were not. WN probably got tired of dealing with that, so that's why the policy is as it is now.

danielonn

The COS did not purchase a second seat. Not sure if they self identified or not. Lets put it into perspective lets say I go to a hotel and their policy was to charge for an additional person. So I go and make a reservation and only list myself as the sole occupant knowing that my Friend will be joining me and they charge for the second person to get the amenities.

My Friend goes and partakes in the Breakfast, Night Dinner Social, uses the Fitness Center. Later the Hotel finds out that my Friend should pay the fee. The hotel adds his charge to the room rate. I go to the manager to see if they can waive the fee. The manager says you did not list the second occupant as per our rules and regulation and charges me for the additional person. I do this knowingly to save money but then the hotel finds out and I am forced to pay the fee either way. So its best just to be truthful and chose the exact number of occupants or inform the front desk at check in if there will be someone joining you.

Same goes for the seat a passenger knowingly or unknowingly knows they need to purchase a second seat which will be refunded if there is room on the flight. They try to get around this by not self identifying. Or someone goes to a buffet and eats less but is charged the same amount as someone who eats more food. You know going in when booking a reservation that you cannot comfortably sit in one seat. Or going to an all you can eat buffet you know you can't eat more than your partner can but still be expected to pay the same price.

The airline should charge the passenger for the two seats on a full flight and then use part of that fee to compensate the passenger who had a quarter of his seat. Why should I have to suffer because someone wants to work the system? If they did not self identify or purchase the second seat then they should charge them the price at the going rate today and if that is not available then put them on another flight.

So I book a ticket to London and my name is spelled wrong or I use a different variation of my name. I could either call customer service or go to the airport and be forced to buy another ticket which is fair because I had an opportunity to pay the $50 name change fee vs a $2,000 last minute ticket.

Or I chose to cram more people into my hotel room and then I get a knock at the door and my additional guests are forced into another room at the going rate tonight. Why should they get special treatment just like the COS why should they be given special treatment for not self identifying and purchasing the second seat at the going rate at the time of the reservation? It would be fine for Southwest to sell them a second seat at the going rate today or have them go on a later flight and perhaps pay a penalty to switch.

My point is why reward someone for not choosing to research the policy. Yes the Business partner may have not minded to be squished but I did.

danielonn

Southwest can follow the Peanut allergy policy just fine and not serve peanuts if a passenger has an allergy. Well what if Southwest served peanuts knowingly and a passenger died?

If the passenger did not self identify at the time of booking and only when they got to the gate then Southwest cannot make the accommodations and may deny boarding or put them on a later flight. Same should go for the COS.

With the COS I could have been injured in an emergency landing. I was literally having to sit in an awkward position. Southwest could tell the passenger with a nut allergy to "Deal with it" and that our passengers have the right to consume peanuts and that studies have proven that breathing in nut dust does not cause an allergy per a British health report.

My point is while the COS condition is not like a peanut allergy in terms of possibly dying form it but it did hurt my ribs and back.

So if I know someone has a peanut allergy I will whip out my Planters. What can Southwest do? Not that I would but I have always wondered if someone ate nuts could they be thrown off the plane or would the passenger with the allergy be thrown off? I mean how can they go down the aisles to see that no one is consuming nuts.

I was on one flight where someone had a nut allergy all Southwest said is "We are not serving nuts" but did not say for passengers to refrain from eating nuts.

Yes nut allergies can be deadly but on the other hand if your that sensitive to fly then it can be a risk,. A COS could have a heart attack and die. You don't know if peanuts touched the arm rest or tray table. Even by wiping it down there could be particles on the floor etc.

My inconvenience should have not been dismissed by the Flight Attendants. Lets say the Gate agent and Flight attendant dismissed someone with a deadly allergy that was mentioned at the time of the reservation who would be held accountable? Same should go for my situation. I did not like being dismissed especially for telling the Flight Attendant at the front of the plane while the plane was parked at the gate after everyone had boarded.

danielonn

In the policy it said that Passengers can proactively purchase a second seat and a possible refund may take place upon open seats. But if this is not done there can be an unplanned accommodation which to me sounds like denying boarding of the COS to the next available flight with an open seat. The COS is to discuss this with the gate agent at the airport.

So the Flight attendant should have called the Duty Supervisor or Gate Agent after telling them about the situation as the passenger was encroaching into my space thus making it uncomfortable. There was at lease one if not two more flights into SJC that evening. I was not there to see how the passenger approached the Gate Agent.

Furthermore COS passengers would book their ticket as Customer's Name Middle Name XS Last Name Smith and get a Seat Reserved document at the boarding gate and pre board. the COS did not have any of this nor did the COS preboard.