Official Peanut Gallery Thread
May 21, 2011, 8:33 am
#346
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
Sorry, no. WN isn't under any contractual obligation to award drink coupons to their frequent fliers in the first place - they can end this program at any time. Because those coupons are given out free, for free drinks, WN can choose to stop giving them out, stop accepting them, or amend what can be gotten for free with the coupons any time they choose.
And no, this isn't deceptive advertising where a store advertises one price, gets you into the store, then prices the item at higher price or promotes a different item (ie, bait and switch).
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
And no, this isn't deceptive advertising where a store advertises one price, gets you into the store, then prices the item at higher price or promotes a different item (ie, bait and switch).
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
May 21, 2011, 11:31 am
#348
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,648
May 21, 2011, 2:09 pm
#349
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,401
Sorry, no. WN isn't under any contractual obligation to award drink coupons to their frequent fliers in the first place - they can end this program at any time. Because those coupons are given out free, for free drinks, WN can choose to stop giving them out, stop accepting them, or amend what can be gotten for free with the coupons any time they choose. And no, this isn't deceptive advertising where a store advertises one price, gets you into the store, then prices the item at higher price or promotes a different item (ie, bait and switch).
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
I have a problem with it because, I BOUGHT some of mine when was selling them. When I bought them WN was requiring cash for purchases on board and I didn't want to deal with correct change, and I used to drink monster on board (by itself on a morning flight or if I had to drive upon landing and if I was able to drink, I would use a can with 2 airline bottles of vodka). WN said those could be used for 1 beer, 1 wine, 1 airline bottle of liquor or 1 can of monster and NEVER expired. To me that says they aren't going to announce a year later monster isn't eligible or that they will expire on 8/31/11. If WN would have printed new coupons that expired and excluded monster and allowed the old ones to be used on monster and not expire, no issues for me. I knmow some people are mad they won't accept expired coupons any more, but I don't have a problem with that since the coupons clearly have an expiration date on them. If WN would have told me when I bought them that would only be good for monster for a year or they would expire on 8/31/11, I would have bought less of them. If I would have known WN was going cashless, I would have bought less of them anyway.
This is no different than going into WMT and buying a Walmart gift card for $100 they say will never expire and then a few months later having them say it will expire in another year, even though there is no expiration date on the card and they marketed it as never expiring.
May 21, 2011, 2:18 pm
#350
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: LAX/SMF/PDX/HNL
Programs: Hilton-lifetime diamond, Southwest A+, companion pass
Posts: 1,752
Sorry, no. WN isn't under any contractual obligation to award drink coupons to their frequent fliers in the first place - they can end this program at any time. Because those coupons are given out free, for free drinks, WN can choose to stop giving them out, stop accepting them, or amend what can be gotten for free with the coupons any time they choose.
And no, this isn't deceptive advertising where a store advertises one price, gets you into the store, then prices the item at higher price or promotes a different item (ie, bait and switch).
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
And no, this isn't deceptive advertising where a store advertises one price, gets you into the store, then prices the item at higher price or promotes a different item (ie, bait and switch).
Do I like that they changed their policy on energy drinks and are setting expiration dates on coupons that had none? Of course not. I think it's distasteful and an extremely bad PR decision. But is it illegal? No.
I assure you that in California, if a merchant issued a coupon with no expiration date in exchange for money or business and then imposed an arbitrary date, it would be illegal.
It's the same as advertising coast-to-coast fares for $99 in bold type, where the catch is you cannot buy that fare unless you buy the $198 round trip ticket. The feds allowed this. Most state consumer laws prohibited this.
The feds have been extremely lenient on frequent flyer programs.
May 21, 2011, 2:21 pm
#351
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
If these were FREE coupons I would have no problem with it, especially since WN gave close to a years notice.
I have a problem with it because, I BOUGHT some of mine when was selling them. When I bought them WN was requiring cash for purchases on board and I didn't want to deal with correct change, and I used to drink monster on board (by itself on a morning flight or if I had to drive upon landing and if I was able to drink, I would use a can with 2 airline bottles of vodka). WN said those could be used for 1 beer, 1 wine, 1 airline bottle of liquor or 1 can of monster and NEVER expired. To me that says they aren't going to announce a year later monster isn't eligible or that they will expire on 8/31/11. If WN would have printed new coupons that expired and excluded monster and allowed the old ones to be used on monster and not expire, no issues for me. I knmow some people are mad they won't accept expired coupons any more, but I don't have a problem with that since the coupons clearly have an expiration date on them. If WN would have told me when I bought them that would only be good for monster for a year or they would expire on 8/31/11, I would have bought less of them. If I would have known WN was going cashless, I would have bought less of them anyway.
This is no different than going into WMT and buying a Walmart gift card for $100 they say will never expire and then a few months later having them say it will expire in another year, even though there is no expiration date on the card and they marketed it as never expiring.
I have a problem with it because, I BOUGHT some of mine when was selling them. When I bought them WN was requiring cash for purchases on board and I didn't want to deal with correct change, and I used to drink monster on board (by itself on a morning flight or if I had to drive upon landing and if I was able to drink, I would use a can with 2 airline bottles of vodka). WN said those could be used for 1 beer, 1 wine, 1 airline bottle of liquor or 1 can of monster and NEVER expired. To me that says they aren't going to announce a year later monster isn't eligible or that they will expire on 8/31/11. If WN would have printed new coupons that expired and excluded monster and allowed the old ones to be used on monster and not expire, no issues for me. I knmow some people are mad they won't accept expired coupons any more, but I don't have a problem with that since the coupons clearly have an expiration date on them. If WN would have told me when I bought them that would only be good for monster for a year or they would expire on 8/31/11, I would have bought less of them. If I would have known WN was going cashless, I would have bought less of them anyway.
This is no different than going into WMT and buying a Walmart gift card for $100 they say will never expire and then a few months later having them say it will expire in another year, even though there is no expiration date on the card and they marketed it as never expiring.
My suggestion would be to call up CR in Dallas and tell them exactly what you said here, which is that you bought these books under a set of rules and you expect them to honor that purchase. Perhaps they would allow you to mail in all your books that will expire for new ones or simply refund your money.
Worth a try...
May 21, 2011, 2:31 pm
#352
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
Southwest, like all airlines, operates under federal consumer laws which preempt state laws.
I assure you that in California, if a merchant issued a coupon with no expiration date in exchange for money or business and then imposed an arbitrary date, it would be illegal.
It's the same as advertising coast-to-coast fares for $99 in bold type, where the catch is you cannot buy that fare unless you buy the $198 round trip ticket. The feds allowed this. Most state consumer laws prohibited this.
The feds have been extremely lenient on frequent flyer programs.
I assure you that in California, if a merchant issued a coupon with no expiration date in exchange for money or business and then imposed an arbitrary date, it would be illegal.
It's the same as advertising coast-to-coast fares for $99 in bold type, where the catch is you cannot buy that fare unless you buy the $198 round trip ticket. The feds allowed this. Most state consumer laws prohibited this.
The feds have been extremely lenient on frequent flyer programs.
WN did issue coupons to folks in California and, in some cases, Californian's bought them. If this violates California laws, the AG there could easily issue a legal opinion or get a court injunction against WN to ban WN from declining coupons that have no expiration date and/or for energy drinks.
WN has lawyers too and I'm sure they felt fairly comfortable with their legal standing and the odds that legal action would be taken. To date, I know of no lawsuits or government investigations into WN's drink coupon practices.
May 21, 2011, 2:32 pm
#353
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,401
I had for forgotten about the coupons people actually paid for. In that sense, you certainly have a legitimate argument. But I'm afraid your only legal recourse would be to sue or possibly file a complain against them with Texas AG's office for fraudulent practices. I don't think either avenue would result in much success, though.
My suggestion would be to call up CR in Dallas and tell them exactly what you said here, which is that you bought these books under a set of rules and you expect them to honor that purchase. Perhaps they would allow you to mail in all your books that will expire for new ones or simply refund your money.
Worth a try...
My suggestion would be to call up CR in Dallas and tell them exactly what you said here, which is that you bought these books under a set of rules and you expect them to honor that purchase. Perhaps they would allow you to mail in all your books that will expire for new ones or simply refund your money.
Worth a try...
I sold several books on Ebay so I did recoup a little of my cost. I realize it's against the T&C to sell them, but I figure if WN is not going to honor their end of the agreement, then neither am I.
May 21, 2011, 2:39 pm
#354
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
I thought about filing a BBB complaint, but it's for such a small amount, it's going to be more of a hassle than what I will get. I am surprised some lawyer isn't trying a class action, but with the books having only been such a small amount, and probably most people holding these coupons got them for free anyway, the settlement wouldn't be enough for any lawyer to fight it.
I sold several books on Ebay so I did recoup a little of my cost. I realize it's against the T&C to sell them, but I figure if WN is not going to honor their end of the agreement, then neither am I.
I sold several books on Ebay so I did recoup a little of my cost. I realize it's against the T&C to sell them, but I figure if WN is not going to honor their end of the agreement, then neither am I.
May 21, 2011, 10:01 pm
#355
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alcatraz
Programs: CO-PLT,Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Platinum, Marriott Silver, AA ex Platinum, Avis 1st
Posts: 544
If these were FREE coupons I would have no problem with it, especially since WN gave close to a years notice.
I have a problem with it because, I BOUGHT some of mine when was selling them. When I bought them WN was requiring cash for purchases on board and I didn't want to deal with correct change, and I used to drink monster on board (by itself on a morning flight or if I had to drive upon landing and if I was able to drink, I would use a can with 2 airline bottles of vodka). WN said those could be used for 1 beer, 1 wine, 1 airline bottle of liquor or 1 can of monster and NEVER expired. To me that says they aren't going to announce a year later monster isn't eligible or that they will expire on 8/31/11. If WN would have printed new coupons that expired and excluded monster and allowed the old ones to be used on monster and not expire, no issues for me. I knmow some people are mad they won't accept expired coupons any more, but I don't have a problem with that since the coupons clearly have an expiration date on them. If WN would have told me when I bought them that would only be good for monster for a year or they would expire on 8/31/11, I would have bought less of them. If I would have known WN was going cashless, I would have bought less of them anyway.
This is no different than going into WMT and buying a Walmart gift card for $100 they say will never expire and then a few months later having them say it will expire in another year, even though there is no expiration date on the card and they marketed it as never expiring.
I have a problem with it because, I BOUGHT some of mine when was selling them. When I bought them WN was requiring cash for purchases on board and I didn't want to deal with correct change, and I used to drink monster on board (by itself on a morning flight or if I had to drive upon landing and if I was able to drink, I would use a can with 2 airline bottles of vodka). WN said those could be used for 1 beer, 1 wine, 1 airline bottle of liquor or 1 can of monster and NEVER expired. To me that says they aren't going to announce a year later monster isn't eligible or that they will expire on 8/31/11. If WN would have printed new coupons that expired and excluded monster and allowed the old ones to be used on monster and not expire, no issues for me. I knmow some people are mad they won't accept expired coupons any more, but I don't have a problem with that since the coupons clearly have an expiration date on them. If WN would have told me when I bought them that would only be good for monster for a year or they would expire on 8/31/11, I would have bought less of them. If I would have known WN was going cashless, I would have bought less of them anyway.
This is no different than going into WMT and buying a Walmart gift card for $100 they say will never expire and then a few months later having them say it will expire in another year, even though there is no expiration date on the card and they marketed it as never expiring.
May 21, 2011, 11:02 pm
#356
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,401
I have some "have one on us" drink coupons from Delta that had expired 12/31/10 and whenever I haven't been upgraded I have been using them, and only one flight attendant has told me she wouldn't accept them. If Delta will accept drink coupons that have expired, then WN shoudl take ones they SOLD that have no expiration date on them.
May 21, 2011, 11:29 pm
#357
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: LAX/SMF/PDX/HNL
Programs: Hilton-lifetime diamond, Southwest A+, companion pass
Posts: 1,752
Except for the case that James pointed out where he bought them, I just don't think WN's actions violate any state or federal consumer laws. Specifically which California and federal laws do you think WN is violating?
WN did issue coupons to folks in California and, in some cases, Californian's bought them. If this violates California laws, the AG there could easily issue a legal opinion or get a court injunction against WN to ban WN from declining coupons that have no expiration date and/or for energy drinks.
WN has lawyers too and I'm sure they felt fairly comfortable with their legal standing and the odds that legal action would be taken. To date, I know of no lawsuits or government investigations into WN's drink coupon practices.
WN did issue coupons to folks in California and, in some cases, Californian's bought them. If this violates California laws, the AG there could easily issue a legal opinion or get a court injunction against WN to ban WN from declining coupons that have no expiration date and/or for energy drinks.
WN has lawyers too and I'm sure they felt fairly comfortable with their legal standing and the odds that legal action would be taken. To date, I know of no lawsuits or government investigations into WN's drink coupon practices.
This Supreme Court decision neutered the state's power to regulate rates, routes, or services of any air carrier, including the application of general state consumer protection laws (such as bait & switch, unfair competition, false advertising, etc.).
The Attorney General of California has no authority over airlines.
May 22, 2011, 10:33 am
#358
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Miami
Programs: DL Silver, AA Gold
Posts: 568
Sounds like a lazy agent and/or one who didn't want to risk being the source of a bag mixup.
On another note, I heard McDonalds is going to be rolling out more of these. If the frequent travelers on WN can't handle them, expect more beat down videos from fast food places on drudgereport in coming months...
On another note, I heard McDonalds is going to be rolling out more of these. If the frequent travelers on WN can't handle them, expect more beat down videos from fast food places on drudgereport in coming months...
May 22, 2011, 11:20 am
#360
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
See: Morales v. Trans World Airlines 504 U.S. 374 (1992)
This Supreme Court decision neutered the state's power to regulate rates, routes, or services of any air carrier, including the application of general state consumer protection laws (such as bait & switch, unfair competition, false advertising, etc.).
The Attorney General of California has no authority over airlines.
This Supreme Court decision neutered the state's power to regulate rates, routes, or services of any air carrier, including the application of general state consumer protection laws (such as bait & switch, unfair competition, false advertising, etc.).
The Attorney General of California has no authority over airlines.