number_6

Unfortunately this is not true, YUP does book into Y and cannot be sold if no Y inventory is available (but AA oversells Y by a lot, so this is rare). Then it immediately (same minute) rebooks into A as an upgrade. If no A is available, then it remains as Y. Most people would refuse to purchase the ticket at that point, and either pick a different flight or a different (cheaper) fare. There has been endless discussion about whether YUP/KUP is an economy or discounted first fare; AA does sell 2 different F fares, and YUP/KUP is an economy fare, cheaper than the discounted F fares, that only guarantees Y travel. The upgrade is free and high priority, so it usually happens, which causes some confusion, but look at all the people who tried to get compensation for the "downgrade" from F to Y on a YUP/KUP and found not a single penny was owed as there was no downgrade. That matter was finally settled. This other glitch of how it credits to QFF and BAEC is next in line to be settled. Now there are dozens of different YUP/KUPs (this is AA, after all, who believes it must create at least a hundred new fares every day; on a typical flight with 120 pax, there will be 80 different fares flying!); so it is quite possible that not all YUP/KUP processing will post to QFF as economy, some might still get through as First. But when it comes to arguing the case with QFF, I think they will see it as a full economy fare and I'm not sure how far you get with the "but it was an A fare" argument (is booking code legally defined in the QFF terms & conditions?). Edit to add that I see this has already been covered in the prior discussion (which I just read). I guess QFF has some inconsistent processing for booking class and fare class, though their intent is clear. I am 100% sure that YUP books into Y and pretty sure that KUP books into K or Y, and 100% sure that neither books into A directly, but is upgraded into A. So you can buy a KUP when no A inventory is available but cannot buy it when no Y or K inventory is available (I have bought a YUP but not a KUP, thus I do know this part 100% sure).

Kiwi Flyer

No. You can end up in Y at time of booking if a flight on your itinerary has no first class (eg 1-class American Eagle connecting flight). You can also end up in Y at time of booking if P (used to be A but now changed) is unavailable. While in general that is unlikely, I have seen flights where this is the case even months in advance.

Dave Noble

A simple email of the ticket will show it to be an economy class ticket which has been upgraded for no cost to first class travel rather than a 1st class ticket. The whole concept behind the fares is that AA sells an economy class fare and upgrades travel to 1st class; this allows people to obtain 1st class travel whilst abiding with common company policy in the USA which prohibits the purchase of 1st class tickets.

Dave

Kiwi Flyer

Interesting. You have just given me an idea.

abcedaria

How so? On all of the paper work I have seen, there has been nothing about it being an economy class ticket. Everything has A on it. I understand the process behind this ticket, however if the customer only sees it as an A, and according to QF A on AA is First, where does that leave me?

Dave Noble

The bit where the fare basis was detailed on the AA site at time of booking ( assuming you booked on AA and checked detailed fare rules ) would have shown YUP

It leaves you with Y status credits unfortunately. You can try contacting QF and seeing what they say, but when they check with AA, I suspect that they will get back information that it was a Y fare and that the points are correct. There is a chance however that it is a mistake in posting and that they will change it

Dave

number_6

How was the ticket purchased? If it was purchased on aa.com, one of its quirks is that the e-ticket receipt does not show the booking code, fare code or fare basis (so it has no A on it, or Y or F or Q or any indication except the word 'ECONOMY' or 'FIRST' or 'BUSINESS' after the pax name and seat number if assigned). In fact on aa.com you can see the fare basis only after making a reservation (and not when browsing flights) and before buying the ticket. It is not shown after the ticket is purchased (which is a strange and rather annoying feature). You have to phone an agent to get the fare basis afterwards. So your printout could not have been from AA, I suppose, but some travel agent.

So as to where that leaves you when contacting QFF to argue for getting F SCs for this flight, QF will contact AA and get the info about the ticket. I guess there is disagreement about what QF will be told by AA about this ticket. I think they will be told the fare basis (KUPxx for example) and the fare code of K. But you are right, AA using A for upgrades causes confusion. Somehow revenue A and upgrade A are differentiated, and I'm afraid I still think YUP and KUP tickets are upgrade A and not revenue A. The fact that in the past they were treated as revenue A isn't one of the arguments you can use with QFF.

bensyd

So in summary. QF is correct in crediting as Y even though it books into A, purely on the fare basis starting with Y?

This seems fair given the 19.1.2 which when read in context of the rest of the T&C's which do differentiate between Booking class and fare basis.

Is there any reason why AA can't just sell these as discount F, instead of YUP/KUP, perhaps a small premium so that AA FF's and others can earn full miles and SC's? Similar to the BA I fares?

Dave Noble

yes. If they sold them as 1st class then they wouldn't sell nearly as many since many US companies have travel policies which prohibit the purchase of 1st class fares. By selling it as an economy fare but just allowing the passenger to travel in 1st class, it allows circumvention of the rule and so increases sales

Dave

bensyd

Sorry, what I meant to say is why can't they sell a discounted F fare at the same price or 10-20% more than the YUP fare. There would then be some incentive for people to extra for the miles, and it might mean AA could fill their F cabins with a few more rev pax.

Dave Noble

See previous answer

They do offer First travel at a discount with a YUP fare. They deliberately list it as an economy fare basis in order to increase their customer base. There is no difference for AAdvantage members for status earning whether it is a Y or an F fare basis, both provide exactly the same number of points towards earning/maintaining status within the AA scheme

Dave

number_6

AA does sell discounted F fares, these vary by route and season. In fact there are at least 3 different discounted F products (and one of those does book into A, with an A fare basis and fare code). However the discounted F fares are typically 20% below the full F fare (or more than double the price of the YUP/KUP fares, sometimes triple the price on some routes). So nobody buys the discounted F fares when they can get they YUP. As for why AA does not sell F for a lower price, that was explained in the CNBC documentary on AA. Short story is they set the price to maximize yield, and lowering the F price has reduced yield in the past, so they no longer do it in that form.

thadocta

Seems like they want to have their cake and eat it too (typical QF) - only credit Y SC's on a YUP when actual travel is in A (since it is technically a Y fare) yet when travelling on an AONEx on a (QF/BA/whoever except AA) flight where only J and Y cabins are offered, credit J SC's rather than F SC's (since this is the class of travel flown).

Dave

number_6

But QF credits F SCs on a DONEx flown on the AA 2-class F/Y planes, and presumably there are a lot more DONEx up-SCs than there are AONEx down-SCs. Not sure there is any rhyme or reason to it, but these are such rare events out of the billions of tickets flown that it really doesn't matter much (except to the individual involved).

thadocta

They should credit based upon the fare class - so Y for Y, J for J and F for F - regardless of the actual classs of travel - or they should credit based upon the cabin purchased - so A for a YUP (on AA), J for a DONEx flying on a Crash-8 SYD-CBR, and so on. They shouldn't decide to do it one way in one case, and then do it the other way in another case.

Dave