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Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 16617403)
So now I invite anyone here to answer the question I asked: What do you do when someone presents a bag, says it can not be screened in any way, but they want it on the plane?
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Originally Posted by TheGolfWidow
(Post 16617478)
You screen their bags. But you don't read their documents, touch their medication, or count their cash. You treat their things with decency and respect, using methods that actually secure the flight.
Same with the passengers. You screen them. But you don't touch their genitals, make them disrobe or irradiate them. And you do it with decency and respect, using methods that actually secure the flight. Again, what I have been asked is this: they will not accept their bag to be screened, not by machine, not by hand. Yet they want it on the plane. What do you, as TSA, do? |
Originally Posted by RatherBeOnATrain
(Post 16618485)
Simple - have them place their bag in a cardboard box and ship it as cargo.
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 16616124)
So, seriously, what do you do when a person tells you they don't want their bag screened in any way, but want it on the plane? Please answer that?
B) You use "in any way" as if you are under the impression that the majority of the flying public thinks they should be able to just waltz onto the plane with no screening at all. Just as with luggage, I think most people can :rolleyes: and live with a certain level of screening (WTMD, puffer), but a level that respects privacy as much as possible and doesn't crap on the Constitution or leave you feeling violated. What the TSA has done/is doing is removing every other option except the most invasive and when people protest you say they refuse to be "screened in any way." |
Originally Posted by Tom M.
(Post 16618332)
The response would depend on the individual. As you are aware, some travelers can have a bag put on the plane without screening.
A. Diplomatic pouches are exempt from any form of screening. A diplomatic pouch can be a bag, pouch, or container holding diplomatic correspondence, documents, or articles. Although an individual transporting a diplomatic pouch may have diplomatic immunity, that individual and his or her nondiplomatic accessible property and checked baggage must undergo screening and all alarms must be resolved. B. The diplomatic pouch must have visible external markings in English that state “Diplomatic Pouch” or “Diplomatic Bag”. The pouch must bear an official seal of the sending government or international organization. For example, a seal could be a lead seal attached to a tie that closes the pouch, a printed seal on the fabric of the pouch, or an ink seal impressed on a detachable tag. The pouch must be addressed to an office of the government or international organization whose seal the pouch bears. For unaccompanied pouches tendered as checked baggage, a detachable certificate will be affixed to the outside of the pouch that describes the pouch and certifies the contents as diplomatic materials. The Department of State (DOS) encourages diplomatic couriers to notify the aircraft operator that they are carrying a diplomatic pouch. C. When a diplomatic pouch is presented by a diplomatic courier to TSA at a screening checkpoint or screening location, the STSO must check that the diplomatic courier is carrying an official or diplomatic passport and a courier document or letter on their person for identification. A courier letter must be on appropriate letterhead stationary and must bear a seal of the sending state, embassy, consulate, or international organization. The courier letter must be signed by the relevant Ambassador or Chief of Mission serving in the United States. The courier document must clearly identify the bearer and his or her status as a diplomatic courier and must contain information sufficient to identify the pouch(es), to include the number of pouches being escorted. |
Originally Posted by NotaCriminal
(Post 16617548)
I do believe some screening is required as I've never been on the "absolutely no security" bandwagon. I criticize the the rules in place and the fact that I don't believe baggage screening is currently performed adequately and the personal searches are unreasonable and as such, it does come off as theater to me.
That being said, given that I do believe screening should occur for WEI, baggage and hand luggage should be screened, should someone refuse such screening, yet wants on the plane, it seems fair to say, "I am sorry to have to inform you that you may not be able to fly today because federal regulations requires the screening of all baggage for WEI in order to board the aircraft. You can either have your luggage screened and board the flight, or leave all baggage behind and board the flight, but it must be screened if you want to have your baggage on the flight." Seems easy enough and respectful to both sides, especially if limited to to the WEI and prohibited items, and other fun and games are left out of the equation (cash counts, being grilled or having the entire process be handled most unprofessionally and disrespectfully). Just my penny's worth of thought as to your question. |
Originally Posted by mpattdu
(Post 16618556)
A) People are not luggage and I think the majority of the flying public agrees that luggage should be scanned and then searched if needed. You can look through my dirty underwear all you want but it is wrong to think that screening luggage and screening human beings should be treated exactly the same.
B) You use "in any way" as if you are under the impression that the majority of the flying public thinks they should be able to just waltz onto the plane with no screening at all. Just as with luggage, I think most people can :rolleyes: and live with a certain level of screening (WTMD, puffer), but a level that respects privacy as much as possible and doesn't crap on the Constitution or leave you feeling violated. What the TSA has done/is doing is removing every other option except the most invasive and when people protest you say they refuse to be "screened in any way." |
Originally Posted by mpattdu
(Post 16618556)
What the TSA has done/is doing is removing every other option except the most invasive and when people protest you say they refuse to be "screened in any way."
Passenger: "I'd really rather you not touch my junk." TSA: "So you WANT EVERYONE TO EXPLODE IN MID-AIR because we CAN'T SCREEN YOU AT ALL?!?" |
SATTSO
Your question has been addressed by several individuals, myself included Please now answer the questions I asked Can a RPD be done in public Can a RPD be filmed If the answer to either is no please explain why Thanks |
Originally Posted by mpattdu
(Post 16618556)
A) People are not luggage and I think the majority of the flying public agrees that luggage should be scanned and then searched if needed. You can look through my dirty underwear all you want but it is wrong to think that screening luggage and screening human beings should be treated exactly the same.
B) You use "in any way" as if you are under the impression that the majority of the flying public thinks they should be able to just waltz onto the plane with no screening at all. Just as with luggage, I think most people can :rolleyes: and live with a certain level of screening (WTMD, puffer), but a level that respects privacy as much as possible and doesn't crap on the Constitution or leave you feeling violated. What the TSA has done/is doing is removing every other option except the most invasive and when people protest you say they refuse to be "screened in any way." And you are silly if you think I was making an argument for the SPD/RPD or AIT. I can rolleyes too :rolleyes: But I think now the point I have made is that the criticism on this thread, that when something has been identified that can not be explained, unless it is resolved, then screening has not been successful, and the passenger or person should not be allowed on the plane. I gave extreme examples of that - and what I described are real examples, but the argument holds up. And now that we have established that screening of some sort must take place or the person and/or bag will be given a DY...T lets use that and apply it to a pat down. If while doing a pat down, and I feel a pace maker under a mans shirt, that is easy to explain, I know what it feels like without having to do anything else. However, if I feel a something under a shirt that I can not explain, short of the passenger removing the item to have the area patted down again, the passenger can not be allowed through the checkpoint. Its common sense. It would be beyond stupid to then allow that person into the sterile area of the checkpoint without knowing what that item is. At that point, you would have to deny entry to that person. Otherwise there would be NO point in doing any screening at all. Or... @:-) ... you could give the passenger the option of lifting their shirt if they don't want the other options. @:-) The arguments all of you make are silly, actually a bit naive. |
Originally Posted by billycorgan
(Post 16618648)
SATTSO
Your question has been addressed by several individuals, myself included Please now answer the questions I asked Can a RPD be done in public Can a RPD be filmed If the answer to either is no please explain why Thanks |
Originally Posted by VelvetJones
(Post 16618610)
They simply pretend like the previous 40 years or so of airline security never existed and that pat downs are the only security that can exist.
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 16618658)
If while doing a pat down, and I feel a pace maker under a mans shirt, that is easy to explain, I know what it feels like without having to do anything else. However, if I feel a something under a shirt that I can not explain, short of the passenger removing the item to have the area patted down again, the passenger can not be allowed through the checkpoint. Its common sense.
It would be beyond stupid to then allow that person into the sterile area of the checkpoint without knowing what that item is. At that point, you would have to deny entry to that person. Otherwise there would be NO point in doing any screening at all. Or... @:-) ... you could give the passenger the option of lifting their shirt if they don't want the other options. @:-) The arguments all of you make are silly, actually a bit naive. As others have noted, you're using, whether deliberately or not, the logical fallacy known as the false alternative. :td: When I have opted out of going through the X-Ray scanner, I have been subjected to a search that exceeds the LEO pat-down frisk, not due to anomalies, but rather as SOP. As we all know, even if I go through that machine, I might still end up being searched in an invasive manner. I suppose your best argument is that some high percentage of those people subjected to your search, e.g. 20-25%, require the sort of further attention you describe. Is that the case? |
Originally Posted by TheGolfWidow
(Post 16618692)
These are such important questions. I hope you can find an answer somewhere.
Look I really don't care if the TSA forces people to volunteer for partial strip searches to fly. I do care about knowing my rights before hand. I have seen numerous instances of TSO's trying to use intimidation to get myself and my wife to go through AIT machines (its funny how they never mention that you can opt out) It would be naive to think that similar intimidation techniques I have seen at C/Ps doesn't occur during a RPD. If myself or any other traveler is in a situation where they must have an RPD then I think these basic non-procedural questions are vital knowledge. Which I am very discouraged that despite my politeness and non-arguemental stances he keeps ignoring me. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 16618658)
The arguments all of you make are silly, actually a bit naive.
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