A Different Perspective
Nov 26, 2010 | 8:05 pm
#91
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Posts: 867
One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.
. . .
Many of you will say that it isnt. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some dont, but that is opinion as well. Its all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?
Apparently, you missed the big news last month and last year, and in previous years that brought us the war on shoes (shoe bomber), the war on water (don't remember why this one started), the war on underwear and the latest installment: the war on printer toner cartridges.
I'd submit, contrary to your assertion, that there have been major follow-on attacks on US commercial airlines. Well publicized attacks. Attacks that the TSA has attempted to capitalize on to justify itself. The fact that these attacks have been unsuccessful is not due to TSA/DHS interventions even when TSA was provided advance notice that an individual would make an attempt. This must be truly bitter pudding for the TSA to eat.
So, instead, we half strip (belts, shoes, winter coats, sweaters), get felt, porn-o-scoped and our possessions rifled and pilfered. And attacks still happen. The change is these attacks have been thwarted. By private citizens acting in their own best interest according to their abilities. A change in response that happened even before the last aircraft on that clear September morning could be used to execute its mission. Before the government advised such a change in response. Without breaching the fundamental limits on government our founding fathers provided.
Your agency, more than any other has demonstrated that these limits on government powers are absolutely necessary to a free and democratic society.
Nov 26, 2010 | 8:25 pm
#92
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
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Mr. Peterson is correct, this is not a game. My apologies to you Mr. Peterson.
Here is the point I was trying to make. Poster SEAFFLYER presented 2 representations, one being terrorists and the other not. My point by linking the article I did is that there is no way to tell who is and who is not. None what-so-ever. The young man in the article was a young Asian male, but with his disguise in place he looks like a little old white male. He could just as easily have appeared to be a female, black, middle eastern, or any other type of person under the sun.
So based on this its clear that profiling is a useless exercise. OBL himself could appear to be to be your great aunts sister, brother, mother, or even father, and with the technology and skill the young man in question was able to acquire OBL could get away with it.
One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. US citizens are the choice target of every terrorist organization on the planet (with one possible exception, do you know which organization I am speaking of?). No matter where we go we have a target painted on our backs the moment we let it slip where we come from. BTW, Israelis have it just as bad, but there are far fewer of them. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.
Many of you will say that it isnt. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some dont, but that is opinion as well. Its all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?
Here is the point I was trying to make. Poster SEAFFLYER presented 2 representations, one being terrorists and the other not. My point by linking the article I did is that there is no way to tell who is and who is not. None what-so-ever. The young man in the article was a young Asian male, but with his disguise in place he looks like a little old white male. He could just as easily have appeared to be a female, black, middle eastern, or any other type of person under the sun.
So based on this its clear that profiling is a useless exercise. OBL himself could appear to be to be your great aunts sister, brother, mother, or even father, and with the technology and skill the young man in question was able to acquire OBL could get away with it.
One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. US citizens are the choice target of every terrorist organization on the planet (with one possible exception, do you know which organization I am speaking of?). No matter where we go we have a target painted on our backs the moment we let it slip where we come from. BTW, Israelis have it just as bad, but there are far fewer of them. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.
Many of you will say that it isnt. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some dont, but that is opinion as well. Its all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?
So your answer is to treat everyone who buys a plane ticket like a terrorist until proven otherwise, is that right?
Using that type of logic would have buyers of plane tickets treat screeners as perverts, theives and other undesirable types until proven otherwise.
Usually what you give will be returned in equal or better value.
Nov 26, 2010 | 8:27 pm
#93
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 342
I'm sorry, your facts are a bit out of date. According to the Global Terrorism Database the current number of terrorist attacks is in the area of 2264 (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/...px?country=217). And I'm pretty sure that the database does not have them all.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
Eh I think the IRS still out ranks the TSA,..... atleast with the TSA your gropings only last a few minutes, with the IRS, they kick you out of your house seize all your assets, seize your bank accounts, and then says 'see you in court' wether your guilty of tax evasion or not.
Nov 26, 2010 | 9:33 pm
#94
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38,543
I'm sorry, your facts are a bit out of date. According to the Global Terrorism Database the current number of terrorist attacks is in the area of 2264 (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/...px?country=217). And I'm pretty sure that the database does not have them all.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
How many have you failed to catch? Every one.
Last edited by Loren Pechtel; Nov 26, 2010 at 9:41 pm
Nov 26, 2010 | 9:38 pm
#95
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One problem with what our alleged TSA representative posting here observed about the limitations of profiling.
No, you can't tell by looking who is a terrorist. Yes, it could be a child or an old woman. So he thinks that means they are guilty until innocent and must be probed and groped until TSA is satisfied that they are not guilty (this time).
What he neglects to mention is that a terrorist could also pass a background check and wear a blue uniform and a shiny badge and work at an airport. But if the terrorist does that, from the day he gets hired, he will be above suspicion, innocent until proven guilty, and even then maybe not. No probing and groping, no accountability, no reliable record of his comings and goings and activities.
Because once he passes his little background check and gets that blue uniform and shiny badge, he's more American than any of the rest of us and he can't possibly be a terrorist.
No, you can't tell by looking who is a terrorist. Yes, it could be a child or an old woman. So he thinks that means they are guilty until innocent and must be probed and groped until TSA is satisfied that they are not guilty (this time).
What he neglects to mention is that a terrorist could also pass a background check and wear a blue uniform and a shiny badge and work at an airport. But if the terrorist does that, from the day he gets hired, he will be above suspicion, innocent until proven guilty, and even then maybe not. No probing and groping, no accountability, no reliable record of his comings and goings and activities.
Because once he passes his little background check and gets that blue uniform and shiny badge, he's more American than any of the rest of us and he can't possibly be a terrorist.
Nov 26, 2010 | 10:07 pm
#96
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: IAH/HOU
Programs: CO/DL
Posts: 349
Mr. Peterson is correct, this is not a game. My apologies to you Mr. Peterson.
Here is the point I was trying to make. Poster SEAFFLYER presented 2 representations, one being terrorists and the other not. My point by linking the article I did is that there is no way to tell who is and who is not. None what-so-ever. The young man in the article was a young Asian male, but with his disguise in place he looks like a little old white male. He could just as easily have appeared to be a female, black, middle eastern, or any other type of person under the sun.
So based on this its clear that profiling is a useless exercise. OBL himself could appear to be to be your great aunts sister, brother, mother, or even father, and with the technology and skill the young man in question was able to acquire OBL could get away with it.
One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. US citizens are the choice target of every terrorist organization on the planet (with one possible exception, do you know which organization I am speaking of?). No matter where we go we have a target painted on our backs the moment we let it slip where we come from. BTW, Israelis have it just as bad, but there are far fewer of them. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.
Many of you will say that it isnt. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some dont, but that is opinion as well. Its all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?
Here is the point I was trying to make. Poster SEAFFLYER presented 2 representations, one being terrorists and the other not. My point by linking the article I did is that there is no way to tell who is and who is not. None what-so-ever. The young man in the article was a young Asian male, but with his disguise in place he looks like a little old white male. He could just as easily have appeared to be a female, black, middle eastern, or any other type of person under the sun.
So based on this its clear that profiling is a useless exercise. OBL himself could appear to be to be your great aunts sister, brother, mother, or even father, and with the technology and skill the young man in question was able to acquire OBL could get away with it.
One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. US citizens are the choice target of every terrorist organization on the planet (with one possible exception, do you know which organization I am speaking of?). No matter where we go we have a target painted on our backs the moment we let it slip where we come from. BTW, Israelis have it just as bad, but there are far fewer of them. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.
Many of you will say that it isnt. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some dont, but that is opinion as well. Its all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?
Nov 26, 2010 | 10:10 pm
#97
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Posts: 724
"...and a bomber in the Middle East attempted to assassinate a leader with explosives inserted in his posterior."
Will TSA be instituting colo-rectal examinations as a prelude to boarding an aircraft in the near future?
IMO, while the TSA is concerned about passengers, it is more concerned about the inability of its front line staff to administer anything but the lowest standard of security and inadequate at that, but they do find water.
The fact that the US hasn't had another successful attack has very little to due with the punitive measures imposed on the traveling public.
DHS in its CBP unit has a trusted traveler program(Global Entry) already in place. Global Entry allows vetted travelers to enter the country in an expedited manner, freeing agents to spend time on other travelers who might present a greater threat.
It doesn't mean that Global Entry participants aren't screened, or may not be further screened at the officers discretion but it generally requires a lower level of inspection. The program uses information, profiling and intelligence to eliminate the need to strip search every person entering US airports from overseas in order to control the movement of contraband.
It is time for the TSA to take a more enlightened approach to passenger security and screening. To do otherwise risks impeding the flow of commerce and its benefits.
Will TSA be instituting colo-rectal examinations as a prelude to boarding an aircraft in the near future?
IMO, while the TSA is concerned about passengers, it is more concerned about the inability of its front line staff to administer anything but the lowest standard of security and inadequate at that, but they do find water.
The fact that the US hasn't had another successful attack has very little to due with the punitive measures imposed on the traveling public.
DHS in its CBP unit has a trusted traveler program(Global Entry) already in place. Global Entry allows vetted travelers to enter the country in an expedited manner, freeing agents to spend time on other travelers who might present a greater threat.
It doesn't mean that Global Entry participants aren't screened, or may not be further screened at the officers discretion but it generally requires a lower level of inspection. The program uses information, profiling and intelligence to eliminate the need to strip search every person entering US airports from overseas in order to control the movement of contraband.
It is time for the TSA to take a more enlightened approach to passenger security and screening. To do otherwise risks impeding the flow of commerce and its benefits.
Nov 26, 2010 | 10:34 pm
#98
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
Choose sides
Nov 27, 2010 | 12:49 am
#99
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
TSA's approach reminds me of treating rampaging cancer with a series of bandaids. Or some programmers' work I've seen over the decades. Spaghetti code happens due to the belief that "you only need to fix each little bug as you discover it". TSA is making its counterterrorist program like an old fashioned COBOL spaghetti coder. That is: The program is sound, so no need to re-engineer. Just patch each little flaw you discover. And now that I think of it, this is ALSO the Microsoft approach to software security. Patch Tuesday. TSA wants to have its Patch Tuesday. And call it security quality assurance. And ignore all complaints because "what else can we do?"
Nov 27, 2010 | 6:39 am
#100
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
Nov 27, 2010 | 6:53 am
#102
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 555
Sorry doober, you are incorrect.. If this is not terrorism, what is?
Timothy McVeigh. He was a terrorist. Eric Rudolph. He was a terrorist.
Not every distrubed individual is a terrorist.
~~ Irish
Nov 27, 2010 | 6:55 am
#103
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
I believe anybody who's gotten a Nexus pass, Global Entry, etc. has been profiled. Isn't the TSA No-Fly list also profiling?
Profiling other than racial or religious may be controversial in other ways, but it seems to be a fairly basic tool in a lot of police and intelligence work. At least one expert argues that "Behavioral assessment profiling isn't the problem. Abuse of behavioral profiling is the problem..."
Profiling other than racial or religious may be controversial in other ways, but it seems to be a fairly basic tool in a lot of police and intelligence work. At least one expert argues that "Behavioral assessment profiling isn't the problem. Abuse of behavioral profiling is the problem..."
I don't think the TSA is equipped to do this. There have been some well-publicized problems with the No-Fly list. What do others think? Is there any kind of smarter security between the extremes of no security at all and X-Ray and or invasive pat-downs of virtually everybody (other than the exceptions which seem to be in contradiction of the exercise 
)?
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Nov 27, 2010 | 6:59 am
#104
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 8,343
They.... "Saw"... Through... The... Un... Believable... Disguise.... Because...
THE GUY TOOK THE @#$! OFF WHILE ON THE PLANE!
It... was... a... passenger... who... alerted... the... brave... crew... of... the... Enterprise...
I MEAN IT WAS THE CREW OF THE PLANE!
Nov 27, 2010 | 7:04 am
#105
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
Airport checkpoints have been around since the 60s. And as the terrorists have become more sophisticated so has screening, by necessity. To use the same techniques as were used when the checkpoints first opened would be criminal, and stupid.