A Different Perspective
Nov 25, 2010 | 6:33 pm
#46
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
Um. But did you bother to find out what those WERE? Anyone can make a list like that. Now compare that with the bombing of trains in Mumbai and the 26/11 attack on hotels there. Or the bombing in Bali. Or the poison gas in Japan.
Don't fall so easily for government propaganda.
Don't fall so easily for government propaganda.
Nov 25, 2010 | 6:42 pm
#47
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: North FL
Programs: HH Diamond, Delta Silver
Posts: 17
I'm sorry, your facts are a bit out of date. According to the Global Terrorism Database the current number of terrorist attacks is in the area of 2264 (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/...px?country=217). And I'm pretty sure that the database does not have them all.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things.
That being said, I do realize there are home grown terrorist cells and individuals, like McVeigh, etc. But a quick glance at the "proof" you provided in the link mentioned doesn't show examples of the terroristic activity that the sheeple in this country think you are protecting us from.
- Skin-head gang members beat to death a Hispanic teen.
- A KKK member shot a potential member for not going through initiation.
- KKK members spray painted racial slurs on the side of a thrift shop in WA.
- Several members of the Animal Liberation Front broke into a mink farm and released 7,000 minks.
Do you really want to cite those examples as being a "significant terrorism problem" in the United States? Give me a break.
Where are the examples of the Al Qaeda linked folks trying to get on board a domestic US flight with a home made bomb?But going back to your OP, I will give you the fact that terrorists have won. Why? Because a good majority of this country lives in fear of the next attack.
On 9/23/01 I boarded a cruise ship for a week long cruise to the Caribbean, against the desperate wishes of my mother, who was afraid that something else could happen 2 weeks post 9/11. I told her that if it was my time, it was my time, and that I'd be damned if I was going to stop living my life because some radical extremists thousands of miles away MIGHT decide my cruise ship was their next target.
The majority of us in the TS/S forum also feel this way. We refuse to live our lives base in fear, nor do we want the government propagating that fear, and attempting to "protect" us to the point that it interferes with our 4th amendment rights.
Nov 25, 2010 | 6:45 pm
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 30,956
It does, and the people have spoken, and better security at airports is what they have demanded. I realize that there are always going to be those out there that either dont believe that, or that dont want what the majority of the citizens want, but that is just the way things are. Its a part of life in this country that we just have to live with. I know, but you can complain and stamp your feet all week long but its not going to change the fact that the majority of this nations citizens have decided to support the governments actions. (sigh)
Irrelevant. It seems to me that despite your brothers sacrifice that you didnt learn the less he was teaching to us all. There are many types of sacrifice.
Also irrelevant. This was your brothers sacrifice, his service and his decision, not yours. I did my time, I directly served my country in the military for more than a decade. Additionally I served my country as a foster parent for 2 decades, and continue to serve my country today as a member of the TSA. I am proud of my record of service, and your opinion on the matter is of no consequence. But I am also proud of your brothers service, and his sacrifice.
Your position being what? What makes your position more righteous than mine? What makes your position, your opinion, more valid than mine?
This thread was not supposed to be about you or me. Not about what I believe or what you believe. It was supposed to be about another opinion, someone elses opinion that I thought might be of interest to a few of the posters here, maybe provoke some reasoned discussion and thoughtful commentary about what might be realistic. Thanks awfully for taking us off track.
Irrelevant. It seems to me that despite your brothers sacrifice that you didnt learn the less he was teaching to us all. There are many types of sacrifice.
Also irrelevant. This was your brothers sacrifice, his service and his decision, not yours. I did my time, I directly served my country in the military for more than a decade. Additionally I served my country as a foster parent for 2 decades, and continue to serve my country today as a member of the TSA. I am proud of my record of service, and your opinion on the matter is of no consequence. But I am also proud of your brothers service, and his sacrifice.
Your position being what? What makes your position more righteous than mine? What makes your position, your opinion, more valid than mine?
This thread was not supposed to be about you or me. Not about what I believe or what you believe. It was supposed to be about another opinion, someone elses opinion that I thought might be of interest to a few of the posters here, maybe provoke some reasoned discussion and thoughtful commentary about what might be realistic. Thanks awfully for taking us off track.
Nov 25, 2010 | 6:47 pm
#49
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
Yeh, if its skinheads, what are these gropedowns at the airport doing to prevent that sort of terrorism? How is the knowledge coming from dealing with Neonazis factoring into the policy of groping old ladies and small children?
Nov 25, 2010 | 6:54 pm
#50
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 65
This is ridiculous. The point of terrorism is not body count. It is to cause people to be afraid and change their way of life.
DHS and the TSA are our response to terrorism, and they have changed our way of life quite a bit. The terrorists "won" when these agencies were created, and they continue to win every time we give up essential liberties in the name of safety "from terrorism".
It is impossible to be safe from "terrorism". We can try to prevent future acts of terrorism, but the way we are going about doing it is amplifying our fears, eroding our rights, and allowing opportunists to grab up powers they would never have a chance to otherwise.
Our government has many options to prevent terrorist acts, which do not involve changing American's way of life.
Our government has many options to fight terrorism, which do not involve doing the terrorists job for them, by continuing to invoke fear.
Our government chose the wrong options, and the recent major overstepping by the TSA has caused some people to wake up to this. It was one thing to deal with stupidity like the 3-1-1 rule, the shoe carnival rule, etc - but techno-strip-searches and bodily searches/gropings have really pissed some people off.
Is it enough people to cause change? I don't know. But I do believe that they next ridiculous response TSA has to some new threat will not be taken as lightly as the previous responses. Eventually enough people will get pissed off. And eventually changes will be made, either through civil disobedience or elections.
DHS and the TSA are our response to terrorism, and they have changed our way of life quite a bit. The terrorists "won" when these agencies were created, and they continue to win every time we give up essential liberties in the name of safety "from terrorism".
It is impossible to be safe from "terrorism". We can try to prevent future acts of terrorism, but the way we are going about doing it is amplifying our fears, eroding our rights, and allowing opportunists to grab up powers they would never have a chance to otherwise.
Our government has many options to prevent terrorist acts, which do not involve changing American's way of life.
Our government has many options to fight terrorism, which do not involve doing the terrorists job for them, by continuing to invoke fear.
Our government chose the wrong options, and the recent major overstepping by the TSA has caused some people to wake up to this. It was one thing to deal with stupidity like the 3-1-1 rule, the shoe carnival rule, etc - but techno-strip-searches and bodily searches/gropings have really pissed some people off.
Is it enough people to cause change? I don't know. But I do believe that they next ridiculous response TSA has to some new threat will not be taken as lightly as the previous responses. Eventually enough people will get pissed off. And eventually changes will be made, either through civil disobedience or elections.
Nov 25, 2010 | 7:13 pm
#51
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 72,129
It does, and the people have spoken, and better security at airports is what they have demanded. I realize that there are always going to be those out there that either dont believe that, or that dont want what the majority of the citizens want, but that is just the way things are. Its a part of life in this country that we just have to live with. I know, but you can complain and stamp your feet all week long but its not going to change the fact that the majority of this nations citizens have decided to support the governments actions. (sigh)
Ron,
You're so full of sh#t I don't know where to begin ... I've been a manager in a federal LEO organization (a real LEO org., not like TSA's "square badges") for nearly 20 years. Thus I start w/ a presumption of goodwill and competence towards LEGITIMATE and COMPETENT steps to safeguard flying.
TSA has long since left behind either of those benchmarks and has become an out of control, unprofessional, arrogant, heavyhanded fascistic tool that does more to prove that the terrorists have won than any actual attack ...
We've handed over our freedoms in an absurdly ineffective and hole-laden kabuki security theatre, and your positing that those who are offended by TSA's lack of professionalism and its propagandistic bombast somehow give aid and comfort to the enemy only underscores the failure of you and your employer.
My colleagues and I would think TSA is a joke, only there is nothing funny about (a) its failure to effectively protect us; and (b) its absurdly incompetent and arrogant power grabs combining ignorance of scientific and technical peer-reviewed data with wholesale disregard for personal dignity and constitutional rights.
You're so full of sh#t I don't know where to begin ... I've been a manager in a federal LEO organization (a real LEO org., not like TSA's "square badges") for nearly 20 years. Thus I start w/ a presumption of goodwill and competence towards LEGITIMATE and COMPETENT steps to safeguard flying.
TSA has long since left behind either of those benchmarks and has become an out of control, unprofessional, arrogant, heavyhanded fascistic tool that does more to prove that the terrorists have won than any actual attack ...
We've handed over our freedoms in an absurdly ineffective and hole-laden kabuki security theatre, and your positing that those who are offended by TSA's lack of professionalism and its propagandistic bombast somehow give aid and comfort to the enemy only underscores the failure of you and your employer.
My colleagues and I would think TSA is a joke, only there is nothing funny about (a) its failure to effectively protect us; and (b) its absurdly incompetent and arrogant power grabs combining ignorance of scientific and technical peer-reviewed data with wholesale disregard for personal dignity and constitutional rights.
Fendertweed, thank you for this. Virtually all the professional military personnel I know have an acute, clear understanding of the American system and where the military fits in. They know precisely what they're defending. They're privately infuriated and sickened by TSA tactics. (For that matter even ground-level LEOs in airports often let us know they find TSA ridiculous.) They know the difference between brutalism and patriotism. For this reason I have no worries about a "Seven Days in May" military coup d'etat scenario in this country, but significant worry about the expansionist agenda of a repressive, brutalist, punitive TSA at war with its own citizens.
It is no accident that the military ranks among our country's most respected institutions, in or out of government, while TSA comes in just about last. The main move TSA has made to promote respect for its forces was to... switch to a different colored shirt. Almost funny. Almost.
It is no accident that the military ranks among our country's most respected institutions, in or out of government, while TSA comes in just about last. The main move TSA has made to promote respect for its forces was to... switch to a different colored shirt. Almost funny. Almost.
Nov 25, 2010 | 7:18 pm
#52
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 33
LOL... why oh why oh why oh why do you guys keep debating the TSO's on this forum? You need to understand, THEY ARE BEING PAID TO SPREAD DISINFORMATION AND PROMOTE THE TSA AGENDA. It doesn't matter what you say or how much sense you make to them... they will deny your points and counter with the same garbage over and over and over, endlessly. They will flat out lie to your face, quote false made-up statistics, and do everything else they can do to annoy you. It's their JOB. They are paid government shills. Nothing you say to them will ever matter!
If their job was to say the sky is green with pink polka-dots it wouldn't matter what you said in response, they'd stick with that assertion.
I just don't get why you guys don't understand this and why you keep wasting time replying to them. Ignoring them is the only way to shut them up.
If their job was to say the sky is green with pink polka-dots it wouldn't matter what you said in response, they'd stick with that assertion.
I just don't get why you guys don't understand this and why you keep wasting time replying to them. Ignoring them is the only way to shut them up.
Nov 25, 2010 | 10:46 pm
#53
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 16,126
Nov 25, 2010 | 11:17 pm
#54
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: Alaska MVP
Posts: 414
Actually, we find on the average of 10 firearms (loaded and unloaded) each week at the checkpoints. We also find clubs, knives, and other types of weapons to me measured only in metric tons. Hundreds of thousands, every month. Hazardous materials? Also measured in tons. Explosives? Not tons certainly, but far more than anyone here might imagine.
Oh we find them sir, every minute of every hour of every day.
Oh we find them sir, every minute of every hour of every day.
Oh, wait, there was that time last Christmas tho...
Nov 26, 2010 | 5:29 am
#55
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Actually, we find on the average of 10 firearms (loaded and unloaded) each week at the checkpoints. We also find clubs, knives, and other types of weapons to me measured only in metric tons. Hundreds of thousands, every month. Hazardous materials? Also measured in tons. Explosives? Not tons certainly, but far more than anyone here might imagine.
Oh we find them sir, every minute of every hour of every day.
Oh we find them sir, every minute of every hour of every day.
BTW, how many of the possessors of these materials were arrested or taken into custody for their acts of terrorism?
Because until they are, you have not caught a terrorist, you have caught otherwise law-abiding citizens that have inadvertently forgotten to remove something from their carry on that you consider potentially dangerous just because it crosses the threshold of a commercial aircraft, things that are perfectly legal in most places except the airport.
Nov 26, 2010 | 5:48 am
#56
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
LOL... why oh why oh why oh why do you guys keep debating the TSO's on this forum? You need to understand, THEY ARE BEING PAID TO SPREAD DISINFORMATION AND PROMOTE THE TSA AGENDA. It doesn't matter what you say or how much sense you make to them... they will deny your points and counter with the same garbage over and over and over, endlessly. They will flat out lie to your face, quote false made-up statistics, and do everything else they can do to annoy you. It's their JOB. They are paid government shills. Nothing you say to them will ever matter!
If their job was to say the sky is green with pink polka-dots it wouldn't matter what you said in response, they'd stick with that assertion.
I just don't get why you guys don't understand this and why you keep wasting time replying to them. Ignoring them is the only way to shut them up.
If their job was to say the sky is green with pink polka-dots it wouldn't matter what you said in response, they'd stick with that assertion.
I just don't get why you guys don't understand this and why you keep wasting time replying to them. Ignoring them is the only way to shut them up.
NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL
It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.
He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
Hes a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.
In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!
Its better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.
It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.
By Dr M C Gupta
It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.
He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
Hes a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.
In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!
Its better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.
It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.
By Dr M C Gupta
Nov 26, 2010 | 6:34 am
#57
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 549
Good, if these were possessed by the terrorists you are claiming to stop.
BTW, how many of the possessors of these materials were arrested or taken into custody for their acts of terrorism?
Because until they are, you have not caught a terrorist, you have caught otherwise law-abiding citizens that have inadvertently forgotten to remove something from their carry on that you consider potentially dangerous just because it crosses the threshold of a commercial aircraft, things that are perfectly legal in most places except the airport.
BTW, how many of the possessors of these materials were arrested or taken into custody for their acts of terrorism?
Because until they are, you have not caught a terrorist, you have caught otherwise law-abiding citizens that have inadvertently forgotten to remove something from their carry on that you consider potentially dangerous just because it crosses the threshold of a commercial aircraft, things that are perfectly legal in most places except the airport.
Nov 26, 2010 | 6:35 am
#58
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
Because until they are, you have not caught a terrorist, you have caught otherwise law-abiding citizens that have inadvertently forgotten to remove something from their carry on that you consider potentially dangerous just because it crosses the threshold of a commercial aircraft, things that are perfectly legal in most places except the airport.
Yes, many (not all certainly) are perfectly legal to poses. I have a CHP, and it is perfectly legal to have my weapon, but not everywhere. Just as it is not legal to bring knives clubs and certain other things through our checkpoints. And yes, many just plain forget that they have these items with them, which is why the vast majority of those who bring them are not cited or arrested. The legality of possessing these things is conditional, and always has been.
Nov 26, 2010 | 6:40 am
#59
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 48,888
And as we all know, WEI can include personal checks in a passenger's pocket. Why else would a woman pax have been stopped and interrogated about them, LE called and attempts made to contact her husband to verify that she wasn't leaving him?
Sharp-edged checks?
Sharp-edged checks?
Nov 26, 2010 | 6:51 am
#60
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,421
Clearly, these are incendiaries.