What makes you think they have not?

I'm sure the TSA has apprehended many thieves, sex perverts and drug dealers. None are a threat to commercial aviation.

Not hardly.

I made an error. Now that everyone has enjoyed a few days of the general silly activity that follows such an error I hope we can get back on topic. I am not the first to make such an error, and I will not be the last. As the man said, only those who have not made an error should be casting stones... and given that, from my point of view here, my error should have been accompanied by total silence.

Because TSA trumpets all of its "successes" and, amazingly enough, not one of these has been even remotely related to terrorism.

Kindly READ the question I was answering before putting fingers to keyboard.

Now, should I take a few days to poke fun at your error, deride your choice in employment fields, or make a complete jerk of myself because I noted that someone I disagree with made an error in public? After all, that does seem to be the norm...

No evidence of being of any use.

Now if you want to prove me wrong trot out something to show.

Yeah, but those were employees of TSA!:)

You're hardly in a position to lecture me about reading.

Here's the question and answer to which I responded:

Once again: how many terrorists have BDOs identified? Isn't that your primary mission?

If you prefer, please tell us how many TSA thieves have been caught by BDOs? How many TSA sex perverts? How many TSA drug dealers?

The news media has reported on this (though TSA remains mostly non-committal). How many of these were caught by BDOs?

All I've ever said is that you are consistently wrong about law, as well as a number of other things, and, moreover, you're quite arrogant about your ignorance of the subject. I've even bet you that you were wrong in the past, with the "pot" being your departure from FT if I won (and vice versa if you did), but you never responded.

So, your unnecessary comments notwithstanding, anything to substantive to say about my response re: BDOs and terrorists (a questions I've posed to you a number of times in this thread, but which you've never answered?

We're all waiting.

And here is where your perception of our mission and the reality of it differ. TSA is not here to “identify” terrorists, but to prevent their actions from harming the nation’s transportation infrastructure. We do this, along with quite a few other government agencies, by having a layered and in-depth screening process in place for the weapons terrorists prefer to use, and have added Behavior Detection services to add another layer of detection that looks not for bombs but for bombers.

But nothing is perfect, and any really dedicated terrorist who is willing to exchange his/her life for the lives of some of our citizens is very difficult to stop. Knowing this, we do what can be done and work hard to improve our process and plug new holes in process as we become aware of them. It’s a balancing act between the needs for security and the need for the nation’s transportation infrastructure to run efficiently.

No idea, but since you are tapped into the news services why don’t you give it a try. After all, you seem to be far more worried about it than I do.

I read reports every day about folks who’s actions get them referred to LEO’s by BDO’s using their techniques, who turn out to be criminals either wanted by the law or who are actively breaking the law when encountered by the BDO’s. BDO’s are trained to spot those little give-away’s that every human has when they are feeling guilty about something, and while it is not an exact science the numbers prove that there is far more to their techniques than the waving of magic wands that some here suggest.

As you should know if you are truly an attorney, the vast majority of the field is about opinions. It is your opinion that I am incorrect in some areas. It is my opinion that you are incorrect. Impasse.

I did respond. Several times. You made a demand of me but what you offered as your part of the wager was … vague, to say the least. Sorry, not much of a deal to be made based on that. Based on that I choose not to accept your highly dubious offer simply because there was nothing in it for me. End of that discussion.

How many times, in this thread? Be honest. I can count just as well as you can.

So you are not there to "identify terrorists" but you do "look for bombers" ?

:rolleyes:

But of course you are unable to supply any numbers to prove your assertion. That information is SSI?

:rolleyes:

Okay, I'll bite. How many times have BDO's prevented the actions of a terrorist from harming the nation's infrastructure?

~~ Irish

Zero.

I was talking about BDOs, but that's fine -- let's discuss TSA. Please identify a single occasion when TSA successfully prevented terrorists from harming the nation's transportation infrastructure. [Cue Final Jeopardy music]

Really? Then I'd appreciate an answer to these questions:

What part of the screening process would have caught the underwear bomber?

What part of the screening process precludes explosives, incendiaries and poisons from being secreted in air cargo or U.S. mail?

How does comparing the name on a boarding pass to ID prevent terrorists from bringing on board the weapons they prefer to use?

How does the 3-1-1 rule prevent terrorists acting in concert (you know -- like the ones responsible for 9/11) from bringing on board gallons of liquid explosives?

How does requiring liquid containers to be placed in a Freedom Baggie render them safe, whereas liquid containers not in a Freedom Baggie are considered contraband?

How does exposing passengers to x-ray radiation detect Booby Bombers and Rectum Radicals?

[cue Final Jeopardy music]

Which gets back to the point I made many, many posts ago:

"As I lawyer, I've conducted hundreds of depositions in my 18 year career. After spending a full 8 hours with a witness during which I can ask virtually whatever I want, the witness is compelled to respond under penalty of perjury, and I can study the witness' responses (and after conducting and analyzing weeks of written discovery and being completely familiar with the facts surrounding the witness' testimony), I can usually arrive at a fairly informed opinion as to whether a witness is lying or not, has something to hide, etc. The idea that a BDO, after a few days of training, can make this determination based solely on a few moments of observation is ludicrous beyond all belief."

It also relates to a question you've been recently asked, but have yet not answered:

How many terrorists have BDOs identified?
How many TSA thieves have been caught by BDOs?
How many TSA sex perverts?
How many TSA drug dealers?

[cue Final Jeopardy music]

I agree, nothing is perfect and no one is demanding perfection. What we are demanding, however, is some sort of rational effort that is reasonably related to ensuring the safety of airline travel. No one objects to security screening. Everyone objects to senseless dog-and-pony shows that provide absolutely no increased security and exist solely to convince casual travelers that flying is safe. BDOs are a perfect example of this.

Indeed, which is another reason why I am critical of TSA. It is entirely reactive, literally closing the barn door after the horses have escaped every single time.

Wrong. It is a balancing act between the need for security and the constitutional limits placed on government power. If ours was a totalitarian government with no constitutional controls, security would be simple. However, ours is not, and there are some things that government can not under any circumstance do.

Happy to answer you, TSORon, and I don't even need the Final Jeopardy music to think of the answer:

Zero.

The question was, how many of these were TSOs? The point raised by the previous poster was that if BDOs are incapable of detecting wrong doing in their own ranks by the people they work with every day, how can they possibly be effective with respect to the traveling public?

As I said, stop enough people and, eventually, one is bound to be a criminal -- even stopped clocks are right twice a day. How many people have BDOs stopped? Thousands? Tens of thousands? According to the TSA website, "successful" LEO referrals are, perhaps, a dozen or so. Do the math: Let's assume a dozen non-terrorism-related law breakers have been identified out of 10,000 BDO stops. That's a "hit rate" of .0012%. Put another way, BDOs are wrong 99.9988% of the time. Do you think TSA would use an explosives detector with a false alarm rate of 99.9988%?

And, as I've told you numerous times, this is pure BS. There is not a single study of which I'm aware that has shown that anyone can make that determination based on a momentary view of someone. This is why Israel which, unlike TSA, is effective at excluding terrorists, interviews people. Of course, Israel doesn't doesn't have any Constitutional obstacles to doing so.

It is not only not an exact science -- it's not science. The BDO approach is as effective as phrenology.

Oh, you doubt that I'm an attorney? Care to make a little wager?

Wrong, again. Law has nothing to do with "opinions."

You have your opinion. So does my 6-year old cousin. The difference between me and you and my 6-year old cousin is that my "opinions" about law are informed, whereas yours and my 6-year old cousin's are not. Unlike you and my 6-year-old cousin, I am licensed by the state to provide legal opinions. Unlike you and my 6-year-old cousin, the validity of my legal opinions is the product of a credentialed education, and unlike you and my 6-year-old cousin, the validity of my opinions have been tested, first by the bar examination, and then through nearly 20 years of trials and hearings.

And, unlike you and my 6-year old cousin, I can prove that my opinions are correct. There is no impasse, TSORon. You were simply unwilling to take my bet because you know what the result would have been.

Vague? I'm not going to search for the thread now, but you had made [yet another] ridiculous misstatement regarding law (and, if I recall correctly, the Constitution), and I called you out on it. You said I was wrong and I offered to bet you that I was right, with the losing party permanently withdrawing from FT. What do you find vague about that?

Not for you, I agree. You apparently take great pleasure in throwing your de minimus weight around in these forums.

Nothing in it for you? You had the chance to silence me once and for all. After all, according to you, you are correct in all your statements about law and the Constitution, and I am not. Do you mean to say that a fine public servant such as yourself would pass up the chance to eliminate a public source of misinformation and confusion such as myself?

Indeed, and even my 6-year old cousin knows why.

I'm sure you can. It's not hard to count up to zero.