troyintn

I am still confused by this thread a lot of it is a union versus management, in all out honesty I do not care who's fault. I care about getting some where on time. At this point I am booking away from NWA. It hurts since I am looking at the SWUs for my next bonus. Only a couple of flights away, but I still need to get from point A to point B.

hazelrah

Unfortunately, that is an accurate assessment of NW operations. I guess we can wait and see if the changes that have been made to reduce capacity in August will make a difference and reduce cancellations.

LarryJ

That's certainly understandable. What's I'm trying to do is replace your "feeling" with as much solid facts as I can. FWIW, I would certainly avoid booking myself on a NWA flight until this situation improves. (Easy for me to say since NWA isn't all that convenient from my home city, BNA)

I don't think that it's the root of the problem, either. From what I've seen and read, the root of the problem is that the staffing on the DC9/A320/757 has gotten too low to cover the normal contingencies that occur in an airline operation. The higher average line (schedule) value just erodes the margin that would otherwise be available to absorb the irregular operations.

Pilots don't time out at 80 hours, they time out at 100 hours. Even NWA admits that crews are timing out which means 100 hours. Pilots can't pick up extra flying if they're already approaching 100 hours. Pilots who call in sick fly fewer, not more, hours so they would be comfortably below the limits.

I don't understand the context of the question. Pilots don't time out at 80 hours regardless of how the flying was assigned.

You're getting confused by the industry terms that we've been throwing around. Just as there are several FAA limits there are also several contractual limits each of which is applied differently.

Guarantee is not a minimum flying time. It is the minimum that a pilot will be paid regardless of how much, or little, he actually flies. The airline will endeavor to build all schedules at, or above, minimum guarantee in order maximize productivity. This figure is not even a player in this discussion as I'm sure that NWA is able to build all flying lines in excess of 70 hours.

Next will be a limit on the number of hours built into a line. This might be the 80 hour figure that we've heard. The airline can build the lines up to, but not over, 80 hours, for example. If the airline tried to build higher-time lines then the union would object and would file a grievance.

There may then be a monthly max. This is the maximum hours that the pilot can increase his line to by picking up extra flying on days off. That may be the 90 hour number that we've heard. Even that is high as 90 hours per month would hit the 1000/hr yearly limit on the 3rd day of December leaving the pilot unavailable for the busy Christmas season.

Contract will also allow the airline to assign trips as an emergency assignment. This is supposed to be for cases where unforeseeable circumstances has left the airline unable to cover flights. Typically, emergency assignments are restricted only by the FAA limits.

The exact details vary from one airline another but the concepts are the same. I'm posting these explanations only to try to illustrate the process, not in an attempt to summarize the NWA pilot contract (which I've never read). Don't fool yourself into thinking that you can understand this stuff after reading a few forum messages. I've been an airline pilot for 17 years and I still get confused by it.

That's a message about safety. They're warning the pilots not to compromise safety in a misguided attempt to maintain schedule integrity (i.e. AAL LIT, etc.) Problem is, any such message is immediately interpreted by some outside the industry as a "secret code". Of course, those same people would interpret silence from the union as another "secret code". [shrug]

Thank you.

MikeMpls

It's also the refrain from UA's Summer of Hell.

NWAFA

No. I guess I wasn't clear enough. High-time is foreseen shortages. We know the month prior that we're going to have to bid more working hours. NW cannot use high-time (forseeable) while employees are on furlough. If the company is short, they have to bring furloughed employees back to work before forcing anyone to work more than usual hours.

HOWEVER, there is the category whatever you call it. I can't remember it, so I'm going to call it category 5050. In other words, "crisis mode". NW CAN force employees to work at the drop of a hat even when there are employees on furlough. Example: A hurricane blows up on the east coast and NW can't get their equipment out of the affected area in time and strands crews and planes on the east coast. Also, employees who commute from the affected area can't get out to come to work. Major shortage of help. We've had similar situations happen in DTW during the winter. Employees who live in DTW can't get to work because they're snowed in.

Now with equipment and employees stranded, NW needs bodies to move passengers. They'll take anyone they can get, even managers both FA and pilot managers to work flights. After the crisis is over, then they'll work out the details of legalities.

This is one of the problems that NW has put itself into. Operating in crisis mode more and more frequently. Looks good on the bottom line, but as someone else mentioned upthread, when things get to thin, all hell breaks loose. It all falls apart.

ALPA met with NW months ago before the company ramped up its summer schedule predicting just this very scenario. NW chose not to heed the warning. Now Steenland and company are surprised.

SchmutzigMSP

Unfortunately, that is circumstantial evidence at best. Just because NW hasn't taken the pilots to court doesn't mean they don't believe some sort of work action is going on. There is no requirement that NW go to court if they suspect a work action, it is only a possibility. So, isn't it possible that NW would rather avoid the further animosity in the public and the press from taking their pilot groups to court? Perhaps they would like to try and deal with it "in house" by recalling furloughed pilots and new hires and simply try to turn the other cheek? NW is somewhat battered after the AMFA strike, bankruptcy, the FA negotiations, merger talks, and now the pilot staffing/absentee issues. They may simply not want any more conflict for right now and are trying to weather the storm until they can hire enough pilots so that they can cover any flight at any time with ample reserves.


You're assuming that it would require some significant level of organization. I'm saying it wouldn't necessarily require much organization. All it takes is for rumors to start on the pilot message boards and suddenly a bunch of disenfranchised pilots start calling in sick at the end of the month to maximize the impact. NW has no way to prove whether they were sick or not and pilots have a right to sick time as allowed in their contract.

As I said earlier, people who want to disrupt things can find ways to do it without breaking the law. It's quite possible that this is what's going on here. There is no proof of either side, but there is circumstantial evidence on both sides. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Pilots likely called in sick at unprecedented rates and NW didn't have enough reserves this summer to cover the absent pilots. Then, fearing a repeat of June, NW preemptively cancels flights toward the month so that they are sure to have some reserves on hand in case pilots are absent again. And, according to NW at least, many pilots have been absent again at the end of July.

sxf24

As mentioned earlier, NW has the right to demand a "doctors note" for sick calls. The Company (rightfully) has zero tolerance for the abuse of sick time.

NWAFA

Schmutzy, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that the pilot's aren't doing anything wrong. That we're simply short of pilot's. Believe me, if any airline has any dirt on any of it's union's, they go to court. If NW had anything on the pilot's, ALPA would be before a judge quicker than a cat can lick it's ***.

SchmutzigMSP

Have you been to elementary school? "Doctor's Notes" are hardly an obstacle for people that want to skip out on something. The airline routinely doesn't bat an eyelash if people come down with the flu or a common cold, and most people don't go get a doctor's note for that.

NWAFA

You are completely wrong on that one. NW DOES demand sick notes. Our lines are blocked until we come in with the note, then the manager has to call scheduling to get the block lifted. It's very humiliating for an adult to have to get a a sick note.

SchmutzigMSP

Since you can mess with my name, can I call you NWSteward or NWStewardess?

I guess I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that some of the pilots might have done something wrong. Yes, they were short of pilots. One of the major reasons the company cited was pilot absenteeism. So we're left with NWA says one thing, pilots deny it. Neither has given credible proof of their claim. So why, by default, must it be evil management?

As others in this forum have stated, I, too, don't really care whose fault it is. But blindly saying "Oh, the pilots couldn't have done that!" is irresponsible to the situation. There are no facts to support either claim solidly. Do you not understand the concept of looking at things from both sides of the equation?
I wonder how the pilots I know have been able to call in sick when they wanted to extend their vacation another day or when they got stuck trying to non-rev home from wherever.

I guess they all must have had their lines blocked until they could forge a doctor's note...

bk42

I think a.) this is a good example of union vs. management mentality between Sch. and NWAFA that is going on within NW, IMHO, but b.) that's enough personal attacks.

Anyways, in the news, NW says that Monday will be slightly better than this weekend. Then, of course, comes August 1. http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1333450.html

slippahs

Last and final warnings:
You all have been warned. I'm serious.

-slippahs, NW forum co-moderator

kyushuman

LarryJ, I just want to thank you for your highly insightful posts here.
I do finally think I understand about pilots' hours:
It seems to me that, while over-scheduling its pilots up to 90+ hours over the ramped-up summer schedule, NWA wasn't making any mistakes. Unless more pilots than average called in sick. So, NWA wasn't ready if even a few pilots called in sick at the end of a month, since the rest of the pilots were out of hours, already at 90+ because of how NWA scheduled the summer. (Based on believing BOTH the pilots' view (NWA overscheduled) and NWA's stance (high pilot absenteeism).
Is that a good summary of all of this?

TeaAddict

Is there any pattern to what kinds of routes and/or planes are being cancelled? Is it pretty much short-haul domestic or are the longer runs (hawaii, transcon, intl) being cut at the same rate as well?

(Apologies if this is covered elsewhere on the forum, but this seems to be the main cancellation thread and I'm not finding anything recent other than the discussion of blame).