SPN Lifer

That's how the common law legal system works, Jim. Good luck.

Doppy

If giving premium and elite pax more rights is unfair, as you suggest, how is disclosing that going to solve the problem?

It seems like it will still be just as unfair. As an example, it was well disclosed that women were not allowed to vote in the US until relatively recently. Was it fair, just because everyone knew about it?

Regardless, how is giving your best customers the best treatment unfair? Businesses profit by building relationships, just as people endeavor to build relationships with friends.

d

PresRDC

Hey flyrights,

Were you by any chance director of marketing for Aeroflot in the USSR days?

TransWorldOne

Perhaps the moderator could change the topic title to...

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Plato90s

It's a miracle that the coach passengers, whom you have described as "non-elite LOW LIFES" didn't storm the airport gate and lynch those FC passengers who got ahead of them in line.

Or maybe it's because everyone not totally bereft of their wits already know the things you seem to be woefully ignorant about.

flyrights

Disclosing the pecking order at the time of ticket purchase would allow consumers to make an INFORMED decision about the ticket they are buying... In other words, if I MUST be on a certain flight, I can decide if I'm willing to pay TEN TIMES the price... at least I have the choice, and I could make an informed decision. The way it is now, with everything in the dark, and the only people knowledgable about what really goes on, admittedly are a bunch of well-heeled frequent flyers on expense accounts. ANd I believe first class flyers are paying ten times the price, primarily to have empty seats available to them on ALL flights... I think the current structure isn't paying enough of a premium to have all those empty seats available to first class passengers... Perhaps TWENTY times the price, might cover the actual costs. Compare the cheapest fare on Southwest, say LA to Ft. Laurderdale, of around $200, to the most expensive first class fare on American... Yeah, twenty times the price seems about right... I believe if companies are willing to freely pay those prices, then they should have all those empty seats they are paying for available to them whenever then want. The problem now, is that business people aren't paying enough, and the airlines are basically using the public to subsidize the business people who want all those empty seats around... So, that is, in part why I am against business people stepping on NON-elite people, who have EVERY RIGHT to be on flights they are ALSO confirmed on... Basically, if you want more rights, let's disclose everything, way out in the open, go ahead and pay twenty times the price, and you'll have lots of empty seats around for you. Basically, elite members are getting their cake...AND eating it too.
I simply would like to see REAL disclosure... and getting support from elite members, like many on these boards, is not something I would expect to get.
I believe most people who have been reading this thread understand the issue/concept... I'm not suggest anyone MUST agree, or even believe it... but I think at least the more frequent flyer UNDERSTAND the concept... Understanding the concept, and being fair and reasonable are two different things.

I'll tell you a short story: about ten years ago, the Bank of America in California had what they called VIP lines in most branches. If you were a VIP accountholder, which I was and still am, you could basically cut to the front of the line in this VIP line. I belive a lot of customers resented this, since it was so obvious that the VIP people were in no more of a hurry than the non-VIP customers, so Bank of America doesn't have the VIP lines any longer. Basically, it just looked really bad. All the years I had the VIP card at Bank of America, I only took advantage of it one time, when there was a line of maybe 50 people in line, and I was in an emergency situation of being in a hurry. I felt awkward standing in the VIP line... The crazy thing is at the time, I doubt I had any more or any less money in my account than most other Bank of America customers... but for some reason, they thought I was a good future prospect for a "better customer", so the computer gave me the VIP card.
I always resented seeing the VIP people casually head straight for the front of the line, and I knew it was wrong. I'm glad Bank of America saw the error of their ways. I would hope airlines might recognize this too, one day... I don't think any airline, maybe other than Southwest, can truly make the claim that they TREAT EVERYONE EQUITABALLY and FAIRLY. (although I am disgusted by their policy of charging large people for two seats, since I think they should conversely charge small people LESS money, if they are able to cram say three people into two seats...but that's another issue).
Jim

flyrights

And one mo' thang...
The reason so many of you are bent out of shape over this issue, is because it tugs at the very heart of your existance: convincing yourself that you're better than other people, and deserving of being able to step on people, when you know you shouldn't be able to... you just get an airline to do your dirty work for you..., (deboarding confirmed passengers, going to the front of the line when you have no right to, etc.).

And look at how successful Southwest has been...yes, despite the fact that they treat people fairly, AND they can STILL make money. Look at British Airways, and the handouts of welfare they get from their government... same goes for all major US airlines and many other foreign airlines.
Do you think the average working class person in some depressed part of Britain is happy that they subsidize British Airways, who clearly doesn't treat people fairly? Sure, British Airways aren't the only guilty ones... but the state of denial you people are in is rather disquieting, at best.
Jim

LarryJ

Civil rights? Fraud? You use big words. Too bad you don't understand what they mean.

Regarding SWA giving a discount to those who can fit two or three people into a single seat... FAA regulations prohibit the ground movement, takeoff, or landing of the aircraft unless each passenger, who has reached his second birthday, is belted into his own seat.

civil rights
pl.n.
The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and by subsequent acts of Congress, including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.

fraud Pronunciation Key (frôd)
n.
A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
A piece of trickery; a trick.

Ken hAAmer

I just realized I once took an economy class flight on BA from LHR to HAM. And ya know what? Nowhere on the ticket did it state that first or business class tickets would be allowed to get off the plane before the rest of us. The b*st*rds!!! D*mn them! D*mn them all to h*ll! Let thy money go with thee to perdition!

Speaking of which, have you seen Tom Hank's new movie "Road to Perdition?" I saw it last night. I wasn't going to, but several critics lauded it, with one even saying it's the year's first Oscar contender.

But I was kinda disappointed. It wasn't bad, but I didn't think it was that great. A lot of predictable cliches, compounded with the casting of Tom Hank's as a nice hitman.

Well, maybe not exactly nice, but fatherly, and rather un-hitman like. But Hank's past has caught up to him, and I suspect most, like me, find it hard to visualize as a bad guy. He's just too darn nice. You know, Forrest Gump.

He's still a very good actor, and pleasant to watch. A great voice, and a charming personality keep viewers interested, as does the always capable Paul Newman in a supporting role. But Hanks is just too type cast.

Now, if you want to see a truly great actor, check out Ben Kingsley. In a way, he's even better than my current choice of "best actor" Billy Bob Thornton (Sling Blade, A Simple Plan, Monster's Ball, The Man Who Wasn't There, etc.)

Too see just how good Kingsley is, first rent Ghandi, the life story of Mohandas Ghandi, who cleverly outwitted the British at every turn, until they eventually had no options but to abandon India. Never a raised fist or angry voice, yet he defeated the British Empire.

Let it sink in for a few days so you get the real feeling of this peaceful man. Then rent Sexy Beast. You'll never turn the lights out again, and live in fear, dazed and confused, for the rest of your days.

Kingsley plays an over the edge, way over, gangster, who I've best heard described as "unhinged." He's the ultimate anti-Ghandi, and you'll never again think of him as that little man in the loin cloth, no matter how many times you rent Ghandi.

Still it would have been fun to watch Hanks in "Perdition" taunt his "hit" with something like "Life is like a box of choclates" just before he fills him full of lead. And while it's good to taunt some things (and in this thread, pretty much obligatory) there is one very important exception.

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(tm).

SMessier

If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.

SPN Lifer

BOHICA!

ScottC

And, once more you prove that you don't know what you are talking about. BA doesn't get state welfare, if you knew anything about European politics then you would know that state subsidies for commercial firms are bound by extremely strict rules (granted, the french don't pay much attention to that).

Jim, please just stick to playing the piano and don't pretend to know the politics of the airline industry.

greg99

They still have VIP Banking at BofA, they even have different tiers, with Premier Banking and Private Banking (I'm not sure why you don't know this, if you were once and still are a "VIP accountholder.") Citibank has the same thing, but calls it Private Banking, Wells Fargo calls it Private Client Services.

Just because you don't see the lines anymore doesn't mean the special treatment isn't there - it's just more subtle and sophisticated. Wells Fargo has entire separate offices for their PCS customers.

BofA gives their Premier clients a specific contact individual with whom they deal. Don't you use that feature, since you're a "VIP accountholder" with BofA?

A very large industry has developed around delivering companies the ability to customize product/service offerings in a manner that helps retain a company's most profitable customers. Called a number of things, but commonly "Customer Relationship Management," this overall philosophy says that you want to treat your best (generally, the most profitable) customers in a way that makes it most likely that they will be retained (because it costs much more to acquire a customer than it does to retain one, if you use your money wisely). This extends to things like banks providing faster hold times for their more profitable customers. That's why you punch in your account number at your credit card company, so that their computers can sort your account from all the other callers and direct it to the correct person and with the appropriate priority.

For general information about CRM, one good place to look is the following:

http://www.crm-forum.com/

Flyrights, you keep challenging us as to why we continue to read and reply. From my perspective, I read this because it's not dissimilar to watching a motor vehicle accident. You can't turn your eyes away, regardless of the horrificness.

I don't know what it is that you do for a living, but if you don't understand that it is reasonable for a company to treat its more profitable customers better than its less profitable customers (and 6 pages of posts by people who really, honestly, have been trying to explain why it's reasonable haven't gotten there), I have sympathy for a corporate employer of yours.

Greg

[This message has been edited by greg99 (edited 07-23-2002).]

TransWorldOne

greg99,

Very true. And beyond private banking, Bank of America offers a special line for commercial customers inside most branches.

BahrainLad

"... maybe a severe lifestyle in Bahrain is getting to you..."

Well, the sun is going down, I'm sitting by my swimming pool, cold Bud in one hand, surfing the web through a Wi-Fi/ADSL connection...and it's a beautiful cloudless day.

Perhaps you mistake this island of liberalism for Saudi????