Originally posted by 4102003:
I am a lawyer, too, and heartily concur. A plaintiff or class action counsel would have an uphill battle establishing that the frequent flyer terms and conditions, which provide for forfeiture under such circumstances, are a contract of adhesion or are under some legal theory invalid.

As to Flyer Talkers taking it upon themselves to castigate a helpful pseudonymous poster -- who will likely post only to this thread, several thoughts come to mind.

• First, it belongs in another thread. (Sorry for continuing.)
• Second, a moderator and the owner of this forum are already aware of the situation.
• Third, the sin of rash judgement seems potentially applicable. This is assuming the faults or sins of others, without knowing all the facts about the poster, advance permission sought, extenuating personal or legal facts or circumstances, etc. [By saying "potentially" I indicate my unwillingness to pass judgment myself or to criticize what may be an innocent query.]
• Fourth, the sin of detraction seems alternatively applicable. This is publicizing the true faults or sins of others to those who have no need to know them. [I recognize that to some extent all users have an interest in adherence to the T & C.]
• Fifth, from a legal point of view, there are exceptions to everything, and there is a maxim that where the reason for a law ceases to exist, the law should follow.

A search of FT will reveal innumerable controversies on dual user names used for less than benign purposes, and why the rule was instituted. An extended discussion should be started in another thread if a debate or even discussion on that point is desired.

Back on topic, this thread contains some very useful points on the airlines "fraud detection" programs that we should all be mindful of, whether giving awards to cousins with different surnames or otherwise.

Another important point is the potential advantage of using specific e-mail addresses for dealing only with airlines, and possibly mailing addresses and phone numbers. Or don't break their rules.

I believe there is currently a class action going on. I do not think it is far-fetched for a judge to find the prohibition on selling miles "odious" and throw it out, particularly since the airlines themselves sell miles! It is an attempt to monopolize the marketplace.

That being said, I wouldn't sell miles unless and until the courts have ruled against the airlines on this issue. It's just not worth it to me to risk my relationship with the airlines.

QL

410, please explain. How have or could have employees or me (as an AA FF) been harmed?

Over 10 years ago (not sure of the exact timing but it was sometime after Onepass was formed with Eastern and Continental FF accounts) I knew that you were not supposed to sell mileage but I did so anyway through a broker in Texas. The first time there was no problem. The second time they sold 2 R/T coach tickets (on Eastern) to South America. Even though the tickets had written instructions on them not to say they had bought the tickets, you guessed it,they did not speak English very well and they were trying to change the return flight and were upset at their choice so they demanded a refund. Needless to say I was plenty embarrassed when OnePass called to say my account was blocked as they investigated. I told them right then that there was no need to investigate; I had done the dirty deed. They thanked me for owning up to this high crime and misdemeanor and promised to get back to me. In the meantime I kept waiting for an agent to stop me as I boarded a flight, demanding my Gold (Highest they had then) card and in front of the other passengers cut it into tiny pieces. That of course never happened as they decided to take an additional 100,000 miles as a penalty and give me the stern warning that if caught again it would mean the end of my account. I have never sold miles since then. It always seemed strange to me though that the airlines were constantly reminding me that I could not buy or sell miles but if Uncle Sam decided to tax them, I had to pay the tax. The ultimate tax I guess ... paying on something you don't really own. For the record, I know a few people at Delta and they say they have really gotten better at tracking down people who do this based on flying patterns, tickets issued to non-family members etc. If you still want to gamble I recommend you know whom it is you are selling them to and make sure they keep their mouth shut as to how they got them. Oh yea, the poor South American guy ... they made him buy a ticket to get home ... he should have read the warning.

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former EASTERN ET,AA Gold,US Gold. Current DL PM-MM,Marriott PL, SPG PLT, Hilton Gold

I don't suppose the airlines would accept a version of the time-tested "Dealer?? I'm not a dealer-- I only sell enough so that I can smoke for free."

edited

The airlines care because FFPs are designed with the assumption that miles have a high degree of "breakage", i.e., the vast majority of FF miles will go permanently unused or "underused". The sale of FF tickets lowers the breakage rate, and can potentially wreck the economics of the FFP if the practice is widespread enough.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

I'd take it a step further. The airlines actually want to do everything possible to avoid redeeming miles. They "allow" just enough redemption to keep people from realizing that miles are a form of Ponzi scheme.

I can assure you that if the number of non-capacity-controlled (typically double miles) tickets began to rise, the airlines would find a way to limit redemptions, either by placing some capacity controls, or increasing the number of miles required (i.e., moving to 2.5 or 3.0 times 'standard' redemption rates).

Airlines consider each and every award ticket lost revenue taken from their pockets. They carry miles at such a microscopic liability on their books that they have no interest in allowing redemption even for accounting purposes. They allow it only to keep people in the game, since they make significant amounts of money from selling miles to vendors...

Steve

There's now local/state/federal/int'l law
that says it's illegal to buy/sell/barter
frequent flyer miles. It is merely a breach
of contract between the members and the
airlines.


While the airlines may not like it, people
do buy and sell award ticets and upgrades
all the time. IMHO, doing it on eBay is
not a smart way to go. I doubt the airlines
employee people full-time to tracking down
the sellers. However, there are MANY
self-proclaimed vigilantes eBay members who
have too much time on their hands. They
send hundreds of snitch emails to the airlines.
If the airlines don't pay any attention to
their emails, they simply create bogus eBay
accounts and make ridiculously high bids in
order to ruin the auctions.

I give my unused miles/award tickets to my
friends and relatives free of charge. This
is a much better alternative than selling
them for cash. Free tickets always make
people happy. Fruit cakes don't.

Last, but not least, do people obey the
law and drive at/below the speed limit.
99.99% of the drivers on the road drive
faster than 65mph/75mph on 55mph
highways.

(getting caught, of course, is another matter)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Just my $.02




[This message has been edited by absolutflying (edited 04-12-2003).]

You can doubt all you want, but the airlines most certainly do have folks who track down mileage/coupon sellers-- you might go back to page one of this thread and see Randy's comments as well. They don't have to rely on "vigilantes"-- although I don't doubt that they do receive unsolicited input from people as well.

This is what I said: "I doubt the airlines
employee people full-time to tracking down
the sellers."

The emphasis on "full-time" employees.
I think the airlines are too cheap to do
something like that. They proabably have
part-time employees do this.($8/hour wage
workers) Just a thought... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Folks - try placing a DELTA miles award on Ebay and see how long you believe airlines do not AGRESSIVELY patrol that site.

The Delta RPU make the Waffen SS looks like pasties. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

Sounds very tempting. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif How about selling some DL awards on ebay 'coz the voices from above told me to'? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Temporary insanity defence? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Another reason why they call Delta Big Brother. . . .

On a related subject...

On one of my high-balance FF accounts I always give away trips to my employees / family / etc. I rarely use this account for myself.

How does the airline know that I have given them away? Will my employees ever encounter a problem at the airport?