Warning/Confession: I was caught selling miles!
 

No need to fan me. I am rightfully humiliated and have learned my lesson. The bottom line is that I sold miles on eBay. I saw others doing it and thought, "What's the harm?" So, I put up a white envelope for sale and sold a ticket. Almost immediately after the sale was completed, I was locked-out of being able to access my miles account. I contacted Customer Service and was told there was a security lock on my account. (I had a pretty good idea of why.)When I finally got through to someone in security, I was told the buyer had been contacted and was being informed the ticket was no good. Very humbly, I told the security rep that I would be refunding the buyer's money and asked about what would happen to my account. I was told that once I had proven to the airline that the money had been refunded, I would be allowed access and continued membership. However, the miles would not be returned to my account and an additional 15,000 miles would be taken out as a penalty. She was nice enough to compliment me on owning up to my wrongdoing immediately rather than denying it or arguing about having sold an envelope. Anyway, let this be a word of caution: don't buy or sell miles, at least not an eBay. As for buying or selling miles other places, let your conscience be your guide. As for me, I won't be doing it. As I've thought for more than a second about the question, "What's the harm?," I can now say plenty. It hurts airline employees and other frequent fliers.

Lots of free emails can be set up and COD with cash collection can be arranged.

Why were you still caught? The lesson is, be more creative.

Thanks for sharing your story. Are you willing to mention which airline it was?

Interesting first post especially the contrite last line.

Personally, I think buying/selling miles is not worth the risk but sorry, I don't buy the fable.

could you please add some detailed facts to your story so we can at least believe your real. In these times of mis-information you must question who is saying what and why.

Just in case anyone does not get my point I ask the following:

<< For the first time since the war began, Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf failed to arrive at the Palestine Hotel to deliver his daily briefing, comments that had grown increasingly bizarre as the war unfolded. Only a day earlier, he insisted, with not a hint of irony, that Baghdad was bracing "to pummel the invaders.">>

Do you think the information minister in Bagdad Iraq who refused to admit Bagdad was being won by Americans while US tanks could be seen in the background was working for Iraq or could it be he was secretly working for the United States



[This message has been edited by Centurion (edited 04-10-2003).]

Don't know about miles, but if you look at the UA SWU's, they are being offered on ebay by two distinctly different groups.

Group 1: Has sold 100-1000 items, and tend to have a lot of SWU's available often. None their SWU's so how do you ding them?

Group 2: Sold nothing else. Probably their own SWU, how do you prove that the seller EASTEREGGHEAD is really Ms. Jo. Blow, unless UA buys them and traces the money?

Selling miles? I think one can buy miles for $0.03, so unless one is selling 50 or 100k, why bother, and the buyer has the big problem, anyhow.

Why would somebody creat a fable out of this... what would be the purpose?

[¡]Why would somebody creat a fable out of this... what would be the purpose?[/i]

could be:
* personally airline linked
* supporting (with a second FlyerTalker handle?) a long lasting promotion of a few FlyerTalkers to change the rules of FlyerTalk coupon-connection

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 04-10-2003).]

1st post.....I say BS!....Looks like a airline playing games...They make $$ from FF miles....and then give us a seat that would be empty....

The first poster is full of excrement. She should sign it Mis-information.

[This message has been edited by Centurion (edited 04-11-2003).]

What a load of hot air! Sounds like a 12 year old telling everyone to be good boys and girls or the airlines will punish us. Only a very incompetent and naive person can get caught selling their points.

Let's keep comments and thoughts about excrement to ourselves.

It works plenty well to ask for more specifics about a story.

While a unique first post, I have met FTers who have been caught selling miles.

Let's warmly welcome 4102003 to Flyertalk -- and even if skeptical of the story itself, give the person the benefit of the doubt, k?

Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Gary
aka gleff
MilesBuzz and Delta moderator

Interesting that many are so skeptical.

First off, do you really think this is the poster's first post on FT? If it was me I surely would have created a new handle to make this post. For all we know it's a long-time member.

Secondly, it says the airlines first contacted the buyer. I would suspect even if the seller was fairly careful not to include identifying info in the eBay auction, the buyer of the miles would clue the airline in as to who and how they paid.

Finally, if it was an airline rep I would think they would have written that the person's account had been permanently closed. This is far less punishment than I thought happened in these cases.

Letiole, a very insightful post. As for the other identities which have been ascribed to me, I admit naive and probably stupid. An airline employee? No. A member with an agenda regarding the coupon section? No. A 12-year old? Unfortunately, older. Full of excrement? No. Incompetent? I don't think so. Fallen Iraqui leadership? A little extreme, don't you think? I'm not sure how much detail others want. One poster asked for the identity of the airline. It was American. Interestingly, I was able to access my account this morning. After a good night's sleep, I became a little angry (just a little.) While what I did was against the Airline's rules, I was most likely caught when I responded to an e-mail from a prospective purchaser expressing an interest in the ticket and asking about flight availability. Two wrongs don't make a right, but on the other hand, I'm not sure an inquiry made under false pretenses was appropriate either. Not complaining though so no need to insult me about my current view.


[This message has been edited by 4102003 (edited 04-11-2003).]

[This message has been edited by 4102003 (edited 04-11-2003).]

Please Guys, Give 4102003 a break
He wants to purge his soul

Interesting story but I remain skeptical. I agree with the poster who noted "Interesting first post especially the contrite last line."

On the subject of airline employees, I find it ironic that these employees have the gall to ask for us to be concerned for their interests when they so infrequently are concerned about our interests. Apparently those of you with status often get better service than me, as they say YMMV, or as they say at DL, SGB.

I also find it ironic that someone would add their thoughts and comments on a MESSAGE BOARD and then tell others to keep their thoughts and comments to themselves.

On the subject of eBay and FF programs, I don't agree with the airlines' restrictions on transfer because it and other subtle restrictions amount to a bait and switch IMHO--they tout the value of the miles which in most cases is an illusion. On the other hand, under our economic system businesses should be able to place reasonable restrictions on such items, so I fully support their right to restrict the awards and to enforce their own rules. I just don't like their rules.

I've never checked ebay for these sorts of things because I never trusted the average ebay seller to refund my money if the thing went bust, and as far as selling I always doubted that someone would give you fair value in light of the risks involved.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone should keep his thoughts or his opinions to himself (or herself.) Just asked not to be insulting about it.

I do note that 4102003 credits letiole with an insightful post .. a post that includes And while 4102003 denies lots of speculation There is no denial of being a long-time member using another handle.

Gary

FWIW AA harassed me and my buyers when i sold Kellogg's coupons on Ebay - then a few days later came 9-11 and they had other security issues on their minds.

IMHO AA is nearly as militant as DL on this and other "RPU" issues - the lady who emailed me apparently had policing ebay auctions as her principal job function.

I got smart and started running private auctions - sounds like they got smart too and started posing as buyers to "sting" sellers.

Guess the next step is anonymous email for sellers, then the next step is they start making actual purchases to catch the seller....

Um no, the the lesson would be: Don't do it....

Whether or not this person is fake or real isn't really up to us to discuss...

I haven't ruled out the possibility of the buyer being affiliated with the airline. I was locked-out of my account almost immediately (3-4 hours) after requesting the ticket be issued. My belief is that someone at AA was waiting in the wings for me to complete the transaction (I wish I had been first hassled by the airline--again, not a complaint, simply a regretful wish.) Also, to clarify my first post, when I spoke with the security rep, she said a message had been left for the buyer informing her the ticket was no good and that AA was holding the itinerary open in case the buyer had sufficient miles to obtain the ticket or wanted to purchase it. The 15,000 mile penalty has not been deducted yet. The rep did say that because of the way I handled it, they would consider not doing so.

[This message has been edited by 4102003 (edited 04-11-2003).]

This poster is an imposter, as told by UA & AA security " Its impossible to track who buy and sells, swu, vipos, and miles, etc,
The general rule is its caught at the airport when the buyer says something really stupid.
Otherwise according US Law, it might be a breach of agreement at most between the flyer and the airline.

Have you thought about suing the airline? Many people believe they have no right ro prevent you from sellng miles or to arbitrarily steal miles from your account because of perceived wrongdoing.

QL

AA absolutely can and has closed accounts for ebay activity-- it's happened to many people, including some FTers. Your "general rule" is complete nonsense.

[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 04-11-2003).]

mlibers - I think that programs do have ways to determine the buying and selling of miles other than stupidity of the buyer. I've met many directors of fraud for various frequent flyer programs though the years and they have become very asept at these issues and really can tell who buys and sells miles.

Clue: they sue coupon brokers and acquire the list of customers either registered to sell or who have sold miles in the past.
Clue: Almost 100% of the time a name transfer on an award is a flag. If the ticketing of the name transfer is outside of your residency (and almost all of buyng and selling miles are) another flag goes up. Non-domestic award name change for award redemption, another flag goes up.

The list goes on and on and it's not about the buyer being stupid. And yes, various programs do pose as 'buyers' on eBay and elsewhere.

I haven't considered suing the airline. I am a lawyer and it's simply not worth the trouble even if the position taken by others were proven to be a valid one. I'm feeling lucky to still have a frequent flyer account.

[This message has been edited by 4102003 (edited 04-11-2003).]

FWIW, I spoke with the security representative again. I thanked her for restoring my account. I also said, I hope I don't offend, but I am concerned that AA may have e-mailed me under false pretenses in violation of eBay's rules. She (who BTW, has been very polite and professional) said very emphatically that AA does not pose as either buyers or sellers. Instead, they have an agreement with eBay for access to information and monitor "everything which has to do with AA on eBay." I also asked about whether the buyer might just be able to keep the ticket now that the money has been refunded. She said, "No, but I'm working something out with them." So, that's my story, believe it or not.

And if you steal something and are caught, is the lesson "be more creative"???

Honestly I do not think it is worth the trouble to sell the miles, not to mention it being against the program rules that you agree to by becoming a member of the program. And besides, I would rather use them for my own trips.

I was caught buying an award ticket on UA about six years ago (first class award to Asia).

Purchased through a broker. I had no direct contact with UA. Showed up at the airport and hadn't said anything to the agent, but was told that the supervisor had my boarding pass. Uh, oh.

Supervisor showed up, asked to see my entire ticket, told me it had been purchased, and confiscated it. There was no discussion. It was not an effort to see if they were right. The decision had already been made.

I was given one choice: walk away or come clean and they would sell me a ticket and give me a free one-class of service upgrade, round-trip. I came clean and was put on the phone on the spot with a UA employee in their security department. It was clear they were really after the broker. I was collateral damage.

The broker later said they didn't know how it happened and put me in touch with the 1K who had sold the miles to the broker. He wasn't happy either. United "fined" him another 120,000 miles for selling an award and told him they would close his account if they caught him again.

I still don't know how UA figured it out. Likely something the broker said or did. I could complain about it, but I knew I was violating UA's rules and I had probably bought a dozen or so in the preceeding years. Haven't done it since.

I've been a 1K every year since, so it worked out for UA in the long run.

It was a few years ago, but don't think the airlines are always looking the other way and don't care.

I'm not a preacher and am not saying don't do it, but be very careful...

I'm a little skeptical of that account, Always Flyin. Are you sure you didn't make up 1666 posts under that new name, just so you could post here to scare people away from selling miles. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Wow, US lawyers flog off their miles on eBay?

In this country if they got a whiff of that you'd likely lose your license to practice for a time, or at minimum get the book thrown at you for acting in a manner ... etc

I'd be less worried about AA, and more about the Bar Association.

This thread piqued my curiosity so I went on eBay to check on VIPOWs. Interestingly, all the sellers are brand-new or ones who have changed their handles and have no history under their new handles. The one exception (a seller WITH history) has closed the auction prematurely despite 4 days remaining on the original timeframe. There definitely seems to be a crackdown afoot!

------------------
Vasant

In the U.S. lawyers are not generally disciplined just for themselves being involved in private civil disputes or lawsuits.

It's a different story if it involves actual illegal criminal actions.

Violating frequent traveler program rules by selling your points is not a crime, but a civil contract dispute, AFAIK.

There must not be very many working lawyers down under, if this is the case there.

Good.

As an aside, there seems to be a ton of fraudulent activity on eBay lately. Just this week, two auctions I was bidding on, for an extremely high-end espresso machine, were terminated early by eBay security. In each case, I had contacted the seller (two different sellers who I'm pretty sure were the same person-- selling very similar units) and the seller(s) responded, very unprofessionally and imploring me to use Western Union (which you should never do with an unknown party) to immediately pay them and they would end the auction early. One seller provided an address in Manhattan which doesn't exist the other was so spooky and evasive that I e-mailed eBay about them-- and eBay e-mailed my simultaneously (our e-mails "crossed in the mail".)

In one case the person was new, with no feedback (which is why I contacted them.) In the other the person had a nice amount of positive feedback-- but all as a buyer, all for postcards and the like at about $3- $5 a piece. Building up a little "credit" as it were. This was his first sale and the item would go for close to $1500 or so.

I personally have never had a bad eBay experience but lately I hear some real horror stories.

4102003
Thanks for posting your story, warning.
This is one of a few topics that belongs into MilesBuzz.
Contrary to some others on this board, I think your story is true.
Actually, I would never sell, do anything what might be "unlawful". And it appears to me, that you are generally acting in the same manner. That's why the agents from AA are "nice and friendly" to you. I have a feeling, that this whole episode will have a "happy ending" for you ...

[This message has been edited by USAFAN (edited 04-11-2003).]

I tend to agree.

Thanks for your confession and lession, perhaps learned.

As to some of the comments made by others....

6-12 months ago, I probably would have responded with something to the effect of "You shouldn't sell AA miles on eBay - it's a violation of their terms, it hurts other FF'ers, blahblahblah." After my more recent dealings with the airlines (see my other recent MilesBuzz post if you want details), my attitude has changed.

The airlines are exploiting every possible bogus fee and rule in the mileage programs to jam up the customer as hard as possible. Why? "The airline industry has changed" is the response I get from AA.

Although I've never sold miles on eBay, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to sell them via an outlet where I wouldn't get caught. (That "outlet" would mainly be finding an acquiantance who needs a last-minute ticket. Somebody I know isn't a narc.) My attitude used to be "The airline is my partner, so I don't want to abuse their system." Now it's simply "They think of ME as their enemy, so I want to extract maximum value as long as I don't break the law or get caught by their internal Gestapo."

The reality is that I'll probably never sell miles because I'm too conservative. But I promise never to show up here lecturing to people who do it - like I probably did in the past.

4-10: It's pretty obvious you are a long-term FT'er. I'd use a different handle, too. I am not sure why so many people think you concocted this whole story for sh*ts and giggles. I'm sorry to hear that you got busted...

Fun topic, I don't ever recall such details disclosed before.
I'll second pinniped : as airlines possess and exercise the right to alter the rules, we have an equal right to circumvent 'em.

I believe the story by 41*, but he got caught and thus is overly emotional. I'm yet to sell any miles, but I reserve this choice to myself only, not to "enforcers".

Let's learn some lessons:
-- private sale is preferable to broker or Ebay
-- sale within the same locality is preferable
-- lesser award amounts are less visible
-- don't risk more than you can afford to lose, i.e. - don't sell from your UA 1P account, sell 25K out of your 26K DL blue account

And, if worst comes worst - you don't have to came begging back to them, it's not the same as banned fr0m securities industry for life. Take your loss like a real trader - with a straight face. And if you really have to be a member - add/drop the middle initial, use a different address and simply create a new account. Hint - I have my first name wrong with one major airline, I tried for a few years to fix it, then gave up.

Silly question -- How do you get miles with your account if the FF account name is not correct? Lately it seems that the reservation name must match the FF account name and those must match your ID?