Am I the only one here who got completely lost in this thread about 2 pages ago? What the heck are you guys saying? I think I'm in way over me head!!!

smarten, SPN Lifer, and blueeyes_austin: Do all of you find that your non-lawyer aquaintences look at you with completely dumbfounded expressions when you are talking to them? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Greg -

Let me try to make it easy to understand.

The question is whether it is "illegal" to sell or barter frequent flyer mileage or the air transportation secured with frequent flyer mileage?

Although a number of posters feel there is nothing "illegal," some of us have tried to demonstrate that in California it may very well be.

When people dispute this assertion, you get all the legalese you're reading as justification.

Sorry. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

In addition, I have been told by lawyers (I'm not one, but have had some education and experience in the area) that it is illegal in California, perhaps elsewhere as well, to use a ticket for passage in violation of its terms and conditions. This would be another way the user of a purchased award ticket could get into legal trouble, though it would not affect the seller of the ticket and/or miles unless fraud (e.g., representation that the ticket could be used legally) came into play.

I generally don't talk like this, except to other lawyers. In particular, I try to use plain English to clients who are paying the bills.

I am still not sure that someone who refers to "Shoe" is necessarily a lawyer, either, though he may have taken a business law course in college, or a first year civil procedure course at law school.

Be that as it may, sometimes jargon is an efficient way of discussing concepts well-known to those familiar with the terminology, which can often include non-lawyers, particularly business people.

From nine years in the Navy, and a life membership in the U.S. Naval Institute -- to go with my same-length memberships in the Continental Presidents Club and U.S. Airways Club as assets I could retain even after a malpractice-induced bankruptcy (!) -- I would venture to say that military jargon is equally obtuse.

Or for that matter, in the OMNI forum try to follow ScottC in a computer technical discussion, the literary references of pynchonesque, the mathematical terminology of Cozumel Jen, or the frequent flyer program arcana on a board you seldom visit.

But that does not excuse us for not being more clear, on a board intended for frequent flyers, not lawyers, and I apologize, too.

By the way, smarten, in the interest of full disclosure, do you now or have you ever represented an airline, travel agent, or other client adversely affected by private "sale" of frequent flyer miles, or do you just enjoy lawyerly debate?

My background includes time as an assistant public defender and prosecutor, but in the California State Bar I am currently only an inactive member. Active elsewhere, though!

You should know SPN Lifer that these boards are NOT to be used to disparage the messenger. In that regard, what possibly does "full disclosure" have to do with what the law is or is not in a jurisdiction like California?

Be that as it may, I have never represented such a person [not that it should make any difference, one way or the other]. I have represented a person who had a successful unfair competition/deceptive advertising action maintained against him/her/it for his/her/its sale of "travel."

I trust you would agree [wouldn't you?] frequent flyer miles or the air transporation they purchase would fall under the broad definition of "travel."

I certainly didn't mean to be disparaging, nor to induce you to disclose attorney- client info, which I'm glad to see you didn't, nor to "shoot the messenger."

I'm sure everyone appreciates your research, whether they arrive at the same or opposing conclusions.

In an area of the law that is debatable, it helps to know the perspective or motive of the proponent, in arriving at an independent conclusion, does it not?

Needless to say, I try not to dispute anything well-grounded in fact and law.

See also An offer to sell miles (Only Randy Petersen forum)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000871.html

The original poster of this thread warned against selling miles. And others have stated that selling miles has been strictly dealt with by various airlines. What about upgrades, like United's SWUs? Has any Mileage Plus member been penalized for selling upgrades? It seems like there are a lot of Sweet Spots and SWUs on ebay.

There are also alot of Sweet Spots and SWU's being swapped/traded/bartered (or whatever else you choose to call it) at the Coupon Connection.

To the best of my knowledge bartering awards is also against all major airlines' rules, interestingly enough the Coupon Connection says, "This is N-O-T a forum for anything related to the buying, selling or BARTERING of airline awards..." - I capitalized bartering for emphasis.

Nobody seems to want to touch this one with a ten-foot pole.

Well,

I was looking at EBay, and saw one for 35,000 CO miles. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2214684426

When I looked again, it was removed a few hours later.

Draw your own conclusions.

EmailKid

------------------
Then again, what the hell do I know?

Don't use the same/similar email/screen name. If you don't then there is no way they can trace you unless the buyer is an employee snitch.

(And I notice some people trying to sell info found off FT!)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2261457909

Actually the fine folks at Ebay will give out a seller's personal info - at least they will give it to *wood authorities when it comes to a seller selling *wood related items - see post #4 of http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343564 where user pacman777 says, "I even tried ebaying the SPG50 cert, but somehow, Starwood got my contact information and sent me a CERTIFIED mail threatening they would close my membership account for breaking the terms and conditions of the cert which state it is not to be sold. I'm not sure how they got the info so quickly before my auction ended."

I know for a fact that what pacman says is true as about a year ago someone I know listed (and sold) an SPG50 on ebay. About a week or two later they received a letter from a paralegal at *wood that ended with the following:

"Consequently, we hereby request that you immediately cease and desist from any and all sales of Starwood Preferred Guest 50% Off Awards in your possession or receive in the future. Unless you comply with this request, we may be forced to take appropriate steps to terminate your Preferred Guest privileges and revoke your membershipor take other appropriate legal remedies."

Interestingly enough this seller WAS NOT even an SPG member!

To me the important thing here is that Ebay DEFINITELY gave out a user's info to a party not involved in a transaction, something I think should never ever happen as long as no laws are broken (yes a *wood RULE was broken - but definitely NOT a law). In this case ebay gave *wood the seller's mailing address info as the bad-boy letter from *wood was addressed exactly the same as the seller's ebay registration info - an address that the seller uses ONLY for ebay related business.

I can 100% guarantee you that this is correct. Starwood does hunt on eBay. How do I know? Well, I sold an SPG/50 myself once and got the exact same letter mentioned in the post above. Good times.

I also sold an SPG50 on ebay and received the certified letter.

Why Do You Do It?
 

Since you know it is agains the rules and when you joined you agreed to participate by the rules, why would you consider this type of sale. It's a bit like being invited to a card game and then not playing by the rules.

Whether I like it or not, I think the airlines have a right to make rules about their "club." If you don't like the rules, then don't participate. Participation is voluntary, last I heard. Given the rules, it is very risky to disregard them publicly with strangers. It is far less risky to make a personal, private transaction between family or friends. If a friend or relative asked me for a frequent flyer ticket that was otherwise very expensive, then offerred to compensate me by giving me a gift certificate to my favorite store, I don't think I would lose sleep over this and would consider it if it would help my friend or relative. This hasn't ever happen - have had a few hint at a free ticket. I have no interest in giving them away just because I was asked. I feel my miles aren't free as I have worked very hard for them - even the "free" miles (ones where I didn't have to spend money to get them, - but usually spent time). I do not agree with the idea of suing the airlines over this. I believe the original poster and think his motives were purely to warn people and I am amazed at the level of scepticism. I don't blame him in the least to post this under a pseudonym as he sounded embarrassed at what he did and being caught. I think it was very nice of him to warn people, and I am not sure why people had to be so antagonistic towards him.

I received the SPG50 letter as well.

All of my travel-related sales are now performed through a relative's eBay account who has no frequest flyer/guest affiliations. Whose account are they going to close then?

Why does Ebay even allow the sales then?
 

If it is against airline rules, and if Ebay is giving out info on the sellers, why do they even allow miles to be sold??

Ebay takes the easy way out
 

Partially it's due to that gray area surrounding "illegal" and "against FF program rules". As Ebay says:

"...the seller may play no role in arranging any travel other than delivering the item. Please note that many airline tickets, vouchers, and frequent flier miles are not transferable, and sellers should review any travel related item before listing to make sure that it can be transferred legally to another party and will be accepted by the issuing provider of travel services."

The other part of the answer is the volume that Ebay handles. There is no practical way to review every auction, until someone complains. Again, Ebay says:

"If a listing is ended or removed, it's probably because the item was prohibited, questionable, infringing or potentially illegal as stated in the User Agreement and a specific complaint was reported. Listed items similar to the ones removed will remain on the site unless eBay is notified about them." (emphais added)

Basically, the airlines have to complain about every listing in order to get each one removed. Then, of course, Tino (or any seller) can just relist the item without consequence. That's why the airlines like to wait for the auction to end and burn both the seller (by taking away his accumulated FF miles) and the buyer (by cancelling the ticket purchased). Clearly, the idea isn't to catch everyone, it's to scare people away from these types of transactions.

Personally, I'm one of the folks who say "these are the rules that I agreed to (not selling miles or awards) and just like I expect the airlines to live up to their side of the bargain, I need to live up to mine." I do believe that when an airline increases redemption rates with little notice (say for a RTW ticket), that the person saving for such an award may have an ethical opening for disposing of the miles accumulated toward that reward. That's far different that running up gift card purchases on charge cards for the purpose of selling the miles or awards.

What an issue this is. They tell you they're worthless and have no monetary value. Then they offer to sell them to you. So it's cool for them to do it but not for you to do it. They offer shopping opportunities where you can redeem them for other goods and services. This means that they acknowledge the economic value of this currency.

My personal opinions are a dichotomy.

The miles are earned and paid for. You don't magically find them like mushrooms in Mario Brothers. They do in fact have a monetary value, whether the airlines like it or not. A good lawyer should be able to tapdance into court and win this. Not only are they a currency, they are in fact one of the largest forms of currency on the planet. There are more FF miles issued than almost all small nations' units of currency. So if they are proven in a court of law to be a valid currency, why then cannot they be traded or moved?

On the other hand, I have a REALLY high mileage balance in my account. So you won't see me playing games with them, for fear of losing all my goodies.

But I will tell you this - if they did take my status or miles away, I would have them in court begging for mercy. It doesn't seem hard to prove a jury of my peers that they stole tens of thousands of dollars from me, and juries love to punish big evil companies.

I hope no one ever wins a case that they have a specific monetary value... then it would be easy for the IRS to say they are "income" and have to be reported... and I personally do not want to see that happen.

The IRS has currently stated they do not value these... but if a court did... they might change their oinion.

William

I just heard that there's a class action suit in NY against Delta about their Medallion points.

You do have a great point about that tax thing tho... A VERY good point.

Great point clanson...

No, it's like being invited to a card game, purchasing chips after being told what the rules of the game are, and then after a few hands, the rules change.

And you are required to keep playing, because you can't cash out...

You do if you're playing the game right.

I buy and sell on Ebay all the time
 

As a struggling business man who travels often I buy and sell AA related stuff on Ebay often. I have bought and sold miles, VIP's, Fly 3 certs. etc. and have never had any problems at all. All my transactions have gone very smooth. There are a few tricks to the this but the main trick is not to have very many miles in your account so if by some chance they catch you and freeze your account, just reopen another one using a diffrent address, phone etc.

I am a very firm believer that if I earned the miles, certs. etc. legitimately I own them and I have a right to do with them as I please. If the airlines don't like it then stop awarding FF miles, stop the promotions etc. and I would have nothing to buy and sell.