so this goes for club passes and upgrades as well right?

Simple - every time I book anything I have to spell my first name "because it is missplelled" - and then they issue whatever.
For the first few years I kept asking them to fix name in my account, but after a while I gave up http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If this tale is true, I have my doubts, it just shows why the majors are circling the bankruptcy bowl.

Here's a tip to the airline special ops people who troll E-bay, polish up your resume because bankrupt airlines don't need private dicks lurking in the bushes.

How about a concerted effort to improve customer service instead of running stings!

I think the algorithm for catching sellers is more sophisticated than this. (As Randy suggests in the earlier part of his post, which I accidentally deleted.)

I regularly give trips/upgrades using miles to family and a few friends on both UA and AA. If I share the same last name I can do it over the phone. If I don't have the same last name I have to sign a piece of paper at a ticket counter. (Which, usually the agent is befuddled about and tells me is just going to go into the trash anyway. But, they still want that signature!) I've never had any problem doing this and (as far as I know) none of my friends/family have ever been put under suspicion for buying mileage tickets/upgrades.

Maybe the programs are smart enough to see the pattern that I'm giving away to several people with the same last name regularly, and assume that the people with a different last name are legit too?
Who knows?

I hope it continues to be as easy to give awards to people.

-BP

p.s. I've never sold/bartered/etc an award and never will. It's too much fun to upgrade a cousin without telling them or fly my Uncle cross-country for a quick weekend family reunion.

I am somewhat amazed at how some people advocate abiding by the rules and regulations of airlines while apparently condoning breaching ToS of FT.

AFAIK, it is against FT ToS to have multiple handles and yet no one has said this to the original poster while the wide consensus seems to be that s/he is another handle of a long time FTer.

Originally posted by 4102003:
I am a lawyer, too, and heartily concur. A plaintiff or class action counsel would have an uphill battle establishing that the frequent flyer terms and conditions, which provide for forfeiture under such circumstances, are a contract of adhesion or are under some legal theory invalid.

As to Flyer Talkers taking it upon themselves to castigate a helpful pseudonymous poster -- who will likely post only to this thread, several thoughts come to mind.

• First, it belongs in another thread. (Sorry for continuing.)
• Second, a moderator and the owner of this forum are already aware of the situation.
• Third, the sin of rash judgement seems potentially applicable. This is assuming the faults or sins of others, without knowing all the facts about the poster, advance permission sought, extenuating personal or legal facts or circumstances, etc. [By saying "potentially" I indicate my unwillingness to pass judgment myself or to criticize what may be an innocent query.]
• Fourth, the sin of detraction seems alternatively applicable. This is publicizing the true faults or sins of others to those who have no need to know them. [I recognize that to some extent all users have an interest in adherence to the T & C.]
• Fifth, from a legal point of view, there are exceptions to everything, and there is a maxim that where the reason for a law ceases to exist, the law should follow.

A search of FT will reveal innumerable controversies on dual user names used for less than benign purposes, and why the rule was instituted. An extended discussion should be started in another thread if a debate or even discussion on that point is desired.

Back on topic, this thread contains some very useful points on the airlines "fraud detection" programs that we should all be mindful of, whether giving awards to cousins with different surnames or otherwise.

Another important point is the potential advantage of using specific e-mail addresses for dealing only with airlines, and possibly mailing addresses and phone numbers. Or don't break their rules.

I believe there is currently a class action going on. I do not think it is far-fetched for a judge to find the prohibition on selling miles "odious" and throw it out, particularly since the airlines themselves sell miles! It is an attempt to monopolize the marketplace.

That being said, I wouldn't sell miles unless and until the courts have ruled against the airlines on this issue. It's just not worth it to me to risk my relationship with the airlines.

QL

410, please explain. How have or could have employees or me (as an AA FF) been harmed?

Over 10 years ago (not sure of the exact timing but it was sometime after Onepass was formed with Eastern and Continental FF accounts) I knew that you were not supposed to sell mileage but I did so anyway through a broker in Texas. The first time there was no problem. The second time they sold 2 R/T coach tickets (on Eastern) to South America. Even though the tickets had written instructions on them not to say they had bought the tickets, you guessed it,they did not speak English very well and they were trying to change the return flight and were upset at their choice so they demanded a refund. Needless to say I was plenty embarrassed when OnePass called to say my account was blocked as they investigated. I told them right then that there was no need to investigate; I had done the dirty deed. They thanked me for owning up to this high crime and misdemeanor and promised to get back to me. In the meantime I kept waiting for an agent to stop me as I boarded a flight, demanding my Gold (Highest they had then) card and in front of the other passengers cut it into tiny pieces. That of course never happened as they decided to take an additional 100,000 miles as a penalty and give me the stern warning that if caught again it would mean the end of my account. I have never sold miles since then. It always seemed strange to me though that the airlines were constantly reminding me that I could not buy or sell miles but if Uncle Sam decided to tax them, I had to pay the tax. The ultimate tax I guess ... paying on something you don't really own. For the record, I know a few people at Delta and they say they have really gotten better at tracking down people who do this based on flying patterns, tickets issued to non-family members etc. If you still want to gamble I recommend you know whom it is you are selling them to and make sure they keep their mouth shut as to how they got them. Oh yea, the poor South American guy ... they made him buy a ticket to get home ... he should have read the warning.

------------------
former EASTERN ET,AA Gold,US Gold. Current DL PM-MM,Marriott PL, SPG PLT, Hilton Gold

I don't suppose the airlines would accept a version of the time-tested "Dealer?? I'm not a dealer-- I only sell enough so that I can smoke for free."

edited

The airlines care because FFPs are designed with the assumption that miles have a high degree of "breakage", i.e., the vast majority of FF miles will go permanently unused or "underused". The sale of FF tickets lowers the breakage rate, and can potentially wreck the economics of the FFP if the practice is widespread enough.

------------------
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

I'd take it a step further. The airlines actually want to do everything possible to avoid redeeming miles. They "allow" just enough redemption to keep people from realizing that miles are a form of Ponzi scheme.

I can assure you that if the number of non-capacity-controlled (typically double miles) tickets began to rise, the airlines would find a way to limit redemptions, either by placing some capacity controls, or increasing the number of miles required (i.e., moving to 2.5 or 3.0 times 'standard' redemption rates).

Airlines consider each and every award ticket lost revenue taken from their pockets. They carry miles at such a microscopic liability on their books that they have no interest in allowing redemption even for accounting purposes. They allow it only to keep people in the game, since they make significant amounts of money from selling miles to vendors...

Steve

There's now local/state/federal/int'l law
that says it's illegal to buy/sell/barter
frequent flyer miles. It is merely a breach
of contract between the members and the
airlines.


While the airlines may not like it, people
do buy and sell award ticets and upgrades
all the time. IMHO, doing it on eBay is
not a smart way to go. I doubt the airlines
employee people full-time to tracking down
the sellers. However, there are MANY
self-proclaimed vigilantes eBay members who
have too much time on their hands. They
send hundreds of snitch emails to the airlines.
If the airlines don't pay any attention to
their emails, they simply create bogus eBay
accounts and make ridiculously high bids in
order to ruin the auctions.

I give my unused miles/award tickets to my
friends and relatives free of charge. This
is a much better alternative than selling
them for cash. Free tickets always make
people happy. Fruit cakes don't.

Last, but not least, do people obey the
law and drive at/below the speed limit.
99.99% of the drivers on the road drive
faster than 65mph/75mph on 55mph
highways.

(getting caught, of course, is another matter)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Just my $.02




[This message has been edited by absolutflying (edited 04-12-2003).]

You can doubt all you want, but the airlines most certainly do have folks who track down mileage/coupon sellers-- you might go back to page one of this thread and see Randy's comments as well. They don't have to rely on "vigilantes"-- although I don't doubt that they do receive unsolicited input from people as well.

This is what I said: "I doubt the airlines
employee people full-time to tracking down
the sellers."

The emphasis on "full-time" employees.
I think the airlines are too cheap to do
something like that. They proabably have
part-time employees do this.($8/hour wage
workers) Just a thought... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Folks - try placing a DELTA miles award on Ebay and see how long you believe airlines do not AGRESSIVELY patrol that site.

The Delta RPU make the Waffen SS looks like pasties. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

Sounds very tempting. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif How about selling some DL awards on ebay 'coz the voices from above told me to'? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Temporary insanity defence? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Another reason why they call Delta Big Brother. . . .

On a related subject...

On one of my high-balance FF accounts I always give away trips to my employees / family / etc. I rarely use this account for myself.

How does the airline know that I have given them away? Will my employees ever encounter a problem at the airport?

Probably not.

You know the folks who are receiving the gift, and they know you.

Which means that they are likely to know the salient details about who you are/where you work/etc which a CSR could ask.

I've heard that one way airlines check is to simply as questions about the gifter to the gift recipient.

Another thing you can do to help make the gift appear even more real is to present the itinerary with a Hallmark card that says 'happy anniversary' or 'happy birthday' or 'thanks for being a great employee' and even include your business card. Just to be on the safe side.


------------------
View from the Wing: A blog about Free Miles and Free Markets

I also say probably not because from what I've seen, the "intervention process" starts much earlier then the airport. The suspect tickets are red-flagged by people who specialize in such things-- they don't want to leave it to airport check-in folk to randomly harass users of award tickets, it's not something they are trained for.

Rather, I believe most of the activity happens when a mileage broker is "busted" (sometimes by credit card records or other indications) and the broker either rats out the people who sold him the tickets, or, the airline figures it out themselves by observing ebay auctions, internet ads...flyertalk(?) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

I give out free tickets to my employees every year, and have never had a problem.

Linda

As I have posted several times when this subject comes up, although I don't know of anyone who has been prosecuted, it is a *criminal* offense in California.

What section of the Calif. Penal Code?

It is also a crime to do all sorts of other things that make no sense---and nobody is every charged or convicted for them.

I wonder how much the airlines paid to Gray Davis for that legislation.

4102003, just curious . . .

- is your posting here at the "suggestion" of AA?

- how many miles where you at risk of losing?

I have lost 35,000 to date (the 15,000 mile penalty has not yet been deducted.) My posting was not at the suggestion, either implicit or express, of the airline. During the second phone call, I did tell the security rep that I had posted my story on a board frequented by people who travel extensively. When she told me about the agreement eBay has with AA, I asked whether it would be okay to mention that information on the board to which I had posted and she said, "Yes."

I found out from a friend today just how true this story is. And, without going into too much detail, AA's monitoring of ebay allows them to make these kind of "seizures" without ever placing a bid or contacting the seller. Suffice to say that AA is taking a great deal of interest in all non-salable AA items being offered for sale on eBay. And-- not surprisingly-- in discussion of this particular incident, right here on FT (Hi guys!) Interesting.

I think one would have to be out of their mind to offer their miles or VIP's on eBay at this juncture. YM(or lack thereof after the sale) MV

4102003, I'm still interested in knowing why you think selling miles "hurts airline employees and other frequent fliers."

Comparing to speeding, I can see the harm to you if you are caught or to yourself or others if you cause an accident. And speeding is even potentially harmul in other ways -- such as potential psychological inflicted on other drivers, passengers, or pedestrians.

But I do not see the harm caused to "employees or other frequent fliers" by you selling your miles. Would you be willing to elaborate?

Maybe AA implanted a chip in his brain that forces him to say that constantly? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Give the guy a break-- he's has a tough month, it sounds like.

BTW, I'm about 90% sure I saw an article once where Randy was quoted as having said that the selling of award tickets does harm other frequent flyers due to the limited number of award seats available in the first place and some other factors.

No brain implant, but do recognize that the statement was made in my very first guilt-ridden post. Nevertheless, I still feel that way. I live in St. Louis. It seems that on almost every flight now, there is an announcement that an attendant is taking his or her last flight due to being laid-off. I won't get into how I feel with about the treatment of former TWA employees but it seems that the travel economy has hurt our former TWA employees more than others. As I have reflected on this experience, I do feel bad that by selling the ticket on eBay, I could have contributed to someone losing his or her job because the purchaser did not give the money to the airline. As for other frequent flyers, I could coceive the airlines determining that the only way to control sales would be to limit use by persons other than the FF account holder. That would hurt those people who give away miles to friends, family and employees. I realize these examples are dramatic overtstatements, but it is the way I now feel. I really don't have a stong opinion though either way. I just wanted to warn others. As for the other eBay auctions someone mentioned, last Friday, I sent agentle warning notes to 7 or 8 sellers on eBay of similar items (I did not warn buyers--that's not my place) telling them what happened to me (not at all being judgmental about whether doing it was right or wrong.) Not a single seller cancelled the auction. One thanked me and said he had received several messages similar to mine but then let the auction go to the end. Ironically, the email address from which he responded contained his full name. I sure hope for his sake, he doesn't go through with the sale. I do think the airline waited for me to take that final step of completing the transaction (kind of like how stores wait for a shoplifter to get past that last point of checking-out.) Anyway, I leave for vacation tomorrow (on AA) and remain grateful that I can still accumulate miles (at least I think so.)

[This message has been edited by 4102003 (edited 04-14-2003).]

Originally posted by sbrower: Originally posted by SPN Lifer: Originally posted by Tango: Originally posted by zvezda: Fortunately for the integrity of our legal system -- both from the view of supposedly unenforced laws and cynicism about the lobbying process -- insistent declamations that an urban myth constitiutes a criminal offense, no matter how often repeated or even posted on FlyerTalk, does not somehow enact that personal opinion into law!

There is no California criminal law prohibiting someone from bartering or selling his airline frequent flyer miles. If you will give me a citation to the section of the California Penal Code that putatively criminalizes such conduct, such as for theft of services, I will explain (as an attorney continuously involved with criminal law since beginning law school in 1985) how under the Rule of Lenity and applicable precedent, whatever statute you have in mind cannot be fairly read to apply to the bartering or selling of airline frequent flyer miles.

It is not simply a question of "soft" prosecutors or "merciful" airlines. Bartering or selling airline frequent flyer miles is NOT a criminal offense. I say again, "Bartering or selling airline frequent flyer miles is NOT a criminal offense."

That said, it is indeed a breach of contract to the extent it violates the Terms and Conditions to which you agreed upon joining the program, subjecting you to whatever remedies are provided in those T & C, including not merely forfeiture of all account mileage, but possibly paying full fare for certain tickets already used, attorneys fees, and consequential damages.

InsideFlyer has reported on a federal class action against Delta in the Southern District of New York based on the premise that such restrictions on individual sale create a monopoly for the airline to sell miles, in violation of antitrust laws.
http://www.insideflyer.com/articles/o2.php?key=59

I do not think the ultimate likelihood of success, including any appeal, is high, though I admit that antitrust was not my best subject at law school. On the other hand, Quiet Lion is very optimistic, though I have not heard any particular grounds for this view.

In any event, until or unless such lawsuits succeed, we are bound by the Terms and Conditions we agree to observe, including all civil contract consequences of our own breach through bartering or selling airline frequent flyer miles.

Originally posted by JonNYC:
Can you say "cookies" and "spyware"? If you nevertheless decide to live by the philosophy, "You rate what you can get away with," keep this in mind:

• Crush or delete your cookies!
• Use different e-mail and mailing addresses (without name or identifying characteristics) than what you give to the airlines.
• Don't deal with brokers.
• Don't deal with people you don't know and trust. Verify references if necessary and get addresses and phone numbers.
• If you're going to post prolifically to a bulletin board, disclosing all kinds of information about yourself, be aware that the bulletin board operator, when receiving a subpoena during a lawsuit filed against you by the airline, will be turning over copies of all your posts for the airline's lawyers to examine with a fine-toothed comb.

with this reasoning, if selling of award tickets does harm other frequent flyers, then we should also BAN giving awards to your relatives and friends, since it also hurt our chance of getting an award seat.

an award is meant to be used. Giving award away or selling it meant the same thing in terms of award capacity.

Here is an extract of a message from 2001:

California Penal Code section §483:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ticket Scalping.
Except as otherwise provided in Section 26002.5 of the Government Code and Sections 40180.5 and 99151 of the Public Utilities Code, any person, firm, corporation, partnership, or association that shall sell to another any ticket, pass, scrip, mileage or commutation book, coupon, or other instrument for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof, or of the book or portion thereof from which it was detached, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Added in 1979.

I stand [somewhat] corrected, though Penal Code Section 483 refers to tickets, not frequent flyer miles. I can see how an airline, or even theoretically an overzealous deputy district attorney, could argue that issuance of an award in another's name from one's own mileage account, in exchange for cash or barter, constitutes "ticket scalping." Without going into the legislative history, however, it would appear that the statute was designed to cover a different social ill than what is at issue here.

The operative terms are "any person . . . that shall sell to another any ticket . . . for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof . . . shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

Several issues come to mind.

"The terms thereof," refers to the terms [contract of carriage] of the ticket, not a frequent flyer program. Perhaps the contract of carriage incorporates the FFP Terms and Conditions. But the operative prohibition seems to be selling a ticket, not issuance of a ticket. In other words, "ticket scalping" seems to connote sale of an already issued ticket, not the [arguably fraudulent] issuance of a ticket to one not entitled to receive it.

Were frequent flyer programs started before or after 1979? This goes to the purpose of the statute, what was intended to be punished.

Again, under the Rule of Lenity the prohibited conduct must be clear and apparent to a reasonable person. How many passengers have ever read the entire Contract of Carriage, available only at airports, etc.? If the statute cannot be reasonably understood to apply to issuance of FFP tickets, as a matter of law, one cannot be prosecuted. However, perhaps my "distinction" between selling versus issuance is too ephemeral, and would not succeed in a Motion to Dismiss.

In practical terms, the reason for a dearth of prosecutions may not be any legal infirmities with the application of the statute to issuance of frequent flyer tickets, as much as "proof problems." There would have to be some showing of intent to sell "for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof." How many defendants are fully familiar that the FFP prohibition has been incorporated into the contract of carriage (if indeed it has)?

That defense might not work for those readers of this thread who admit to reading the entire C of C or who acknowledge that the FFP T & C have been so incorporated. Perhaps it is plainly done on the back of the tickets? What about e-tickets and the terms we blithely click "ok" to? Will a jury believe someone who claims not to have read them?

While I don't think chances of conviction would be high, either factually nor legally, as an attorney I cannot counsel violations of the law.

Perhaps the airlines are just waiting for a perfect "test case," e.g. a ticket broker, to refer to the District Attorney's Office. Or perhaps they have done research and determined that without proving intent -- mens rea (guilty mind) -- they would be far better off proceeding civilly, where the standard of proof is a "preponderance of the evidence" (50+%) rather than the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of a criminal prosecution.

Perhaps some ticket broker will be "made an example of" and then the state of the law as to the validity of a "ticket scalping" prosecution for sale of FFP miles will be made clear.

It is an interesting legal issue. Anyone selling miles would be well advised not to do so in California, or with flights to or from there. Better still, give them away!

Needless to say, I am not undertaking to provide legal advice, or enter into an attorney-client relationship with anyone reading this thread. For questions about a particular situation, consult a lawyer.

The antitrust class action issue, while it may not prevail civilly, could also serve as successful good-faith defense in a criminal case, due to the differing standards of proof, 50% in the civil case versus 95% or whatever "reasonable doubt" is.

Note that by referring to that antitrust case I am conflating legal issues (questions of law) with the evidentiary factual burdens of a criminal prosecution, but it could go to intent.

Not that outlandish intent saves the day in criminal tax prosecutions!

About 3 years ago, I bid on an America West $300 cert.

I got an e-mail from American West's Fraud Dept, that was threatening, etc. Ebay yanked the auction off.

I didn't have an American West FF account. Still don't. I probably would have spent $700 on Am West total, but they lost that revenue.

I have not flown Am West since.

The topic heading is somewhat misleading - it should be modified to reflect that the seller was caught selling American miles. As will be discussed below, most other airlines are not as ruthless as American in pursuing people who sell miles and upgrades.

On average, about 50 Southwest coupons are auctioned on ebay every day. To my knowledge, Southwest does not pursue these people because it has determined that it is better for business not to annoy its best customers.

In addition, there are dozens of ebay auctions each week for upgrade coupons from United, Northwest, Continental and other airlines. Although these certificates cannot - by their terms - be sold for cash, the airlines have apparently decided that it is not worth the trouble to pursue the sellers (no doubt very good customers if they have upgrades to spare).

American Airlines is the exception to the laissez fare rule. I once tried to sell an AA discount certificate (not miles) that I received in the mail through a VISA promotion. Within 1 day, ebay had shut down my auction as a violation of its rules. American apparently believes it is a good use of personnel to monitor ebay for such auctions, and ebay management (who are generally wimpy about such things) has agreed to pull auctions for American. I think that United also monitors mileage auctions but don't have any first-hand experience.

It is not difficult for American to figure out who is selling miles, as ebay has account information for all sellers and apparently is willing to violate your privacy by providing it to American.

So the moral of the story is: Don't sell miles on ebay and don't sell anything that relates to American Airlines.