This whole debate is really much ado about nothing.

I've found that almost univerally, merchants will refund based on how they were paid. This is PARTICULARLY true with expensive items. Getting 100 miles here or there won't make much difference in your FF balance or the merchant's wallet. Buying and returning to get cash/miles will also get very boring very quickly. You'll have to buy/return $100 worth of merchandise 250 times to get a US domestic ticket. Nobody is going to do that. Nobody is even going to do it 50 times to get 5000 miles. The whole idea is absurd.

If you really want to get miles for doing basically nothing, try eating out with friends while earning FF miles (and iDine miles) on your credit card. Pick up the tab and have your friends pay you cash for their parts of the bill. You'll get a lot more miles for a lot less effort.

[This message has been edited by xyzzy (edited 02-04-2003).]

CactusPete, I think you might need to edit that post

If I read the intent correctly, you are correct, I don't have a problem with MM collecting miles in this way as a result of everyday transactions that are not -intended- to defraud.

He said that, but I don't think that was what was intended. Sorry, BB, don't meant to speak for you, but if we go back and read all the posts, the only issue we have a problem with is -deliberatly- defrauding the store.

You need to see where the fee is coming from. if it's added to your purchase, then it's the store charging you, and it's out of your control. If it's added to your bank statement, then it's your bank and you need a new one.

This is a totally unrelated thing to the buy and return. ATM fees for the merchant are not based on the dollar amount, they pay the same thirty five or fifty cents (whatever their agreement is) if you use your card for a pack of gum, or you use it for a pack of gum and $200 in cash. You actually help them by reducing their cash they have to process.

Buying and returning something with a miles earning credit card forces the merchant to pay a service fee twice, which of course they will pass along to the rest of us.

As others have said, it's a moot point as they usually won't give you cash back for a credit card purchase, if they do it's usually against thhe terms they have with their merchant account, as most include lines like the following (from one I have)

You will not, under any circumstances, pay any card refund or adjustment to a cardholder in cash.

I have hundreds of inmates who asked a similar question before moving on to bigger and badder. It's a slippery slope, IMO.

In my own experiences with refunds, I too have been given cash when the original purchase was with a credit card. But in almost every case, it's a small amount, usually under $100.00. Almost all large purchases appear as a credit on my card. So how much can one significantly gain by doing this solely for the intent on gaining miles? It sounds like much more trouble than it's worth.

Integrity is always such an intersting topic. My .02 on this is that integrity is the foundation of your life. Little breaks in intgrity are just as bad as big ones. Think of the foundation of a bridge (the integrity of the bridge depends on its foundation). Would you really want to use that bridge if the foundation was shaky in the least?

Also, integrity is a very personal thing. My integrity can not be determined by anyone else. And, I can not decide what your integrity should be. If, however, I ever question whether or not something is in or out of integrity for me, it is probably out of integrity.

This thread is called: "Buy stuff and return... for miles?"

...which means my posts about Home Depot and cash back on my debit card that earns miles is in fact related to that topic. Yes, it does not talk about schools but it is the same issue category: Buy stuff and return... for miles.

The length of posts about it should have no bearing on the ethics or the topic. Mine are not so long, but they cover a lot of sides or examples of this issue.

As far as ATMs, though was originall brought up to show examples as to why cash back is good. I agree that any store or bank that charges fees is a no-no and because we are talking about cash back and costs of it, even this stuff about ATMs is somewhat related to the thread.

I used a debit card to do a purchase which essentially DOES allow cash back when you purchase. Apparently, it does the same when you make a return. Like I said, I would have taken the charge back to my card but when they let me have cash back upon returning my items, I took it. Who woudnt?

Why and how Home Depot or any other store like it decides to give cash or not is beyond me. That would be between them, the banks who issue cards, and Mastercard or Visa, not me. If I go in that store and charge "X" for $300 and then return $100 of it and they give me cash, that is great. If the first $300 charge gets me miles, that is great too. I reported this fact in this very relevant thread (but I find I should not have bothered to share such tips with some people). There are some circles who, upon learning this one "works," might have told me I would have been foolish to NOT use my miles-earning card when doing this--intentionally or not! These types say it is important to always use the miles earning cards for everything they do. Would I have been considered unethical if I had done the exact same thing and NOT earned any miles on that debit card? Please tell me.

I paid, I returned, I got cash back and it was also a good-found short cut to having to go visit one and pay fees for getting money out. HD could have said no and I would have been fine with this.

If I got miles for the debit card purchase and then returned things to the store, I would have normally expected the store to take the items back and put the above $100 (in this example) back onto my card. Then my statement would reflect a return and thus, minus miles. Fine.

BUT they chose to give me cash and I took it.

More recently, I used a miles-earning CREDIT card to pay for a hair cut. Ok, so it was only $15 but like I said, we use our miles-earning cards for nearly everything and they add up...

Anyway, I then said I would like to tip the guy $3 and the desk clerk asked me if I would like to put this on the card (I had no cash on me that moment). I said yes, assuming that at the end of the day, all his cuts would be totalled and he gets back tips left over. Instead, they GAVE me $3 cash right out of the register the minute my $18 charge went thru and then had me sign the $18 charge slip! I took the cash and I turned and gave to the hair stylist! I, in a sense, got 'cash back' on a credit card (not debit card) and got miles for it as well.

Did we alllll break some laws here and should we visit the jailer? (can you earn miles for things purchased while in prison?)

[Catolius Petus Maximus: thanks for your concern over my knee: I did hurt my knee a bit whilst skiing last weekend after being run into by a jerk (knee jerk) but it is better now. ]



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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Marathon Man, the fact that you protest so much probably means that you do have some internal conflict about what you are doing. Personally, I see no problem with what you are doing, but you seem to...

No, I have no problem with what I did or am doing. I do find problems with the fact that I seem to run into so many do-gooders who never see anything gray in this world and when it comes to ways to earn miles or discuss this.

Some call me unethical for knowing about this way to earn miles. I do not mind being called one thing or another, nor do I care what they think, but what bothers me is the persistence they all seem to have when it comes to trying to be so ethically perfect! I mean, they are not perfect, but they say they are by saying these actions are not up to some par. (Who's par? What par? ...and where the hell did I dine?)

Here's an offshoot:

When I was in college (a big state univ where you want to party as an 18-21 year old) there were always these types who were the "RA's" (resident assistants) who would love to bust you or try to bust you. They would go looking for people to bust for the very things they would also do too but not tell anybody about. These are the types who later turn into something like a rapist priest, ya know?

They were brown-nosing do-gooders who seemed to label people who were not acting as outwardly perfect as they said they were always being all of the time. Yeah, I was there to learn, but I also had a great time doing so. I think it was a great balance and I did not get in trouble but sure ran into some jerks who loved to deal it out!

I hated these types because they thrived on things like correcting your spelling in a simple, casual note (and not like a teacher does, checking if that GingerAle you were carrying was actually a beer, or being a back seat driver type who is a fink. These were the types you would hog-tie at the frat party that your friend who was a member was having everyone over to. We did this once and the fink we hated most finally quit the school. Everyone had a laugh and I am sure that person is now like the geek office worker who always worried about losing his stapler in the movie, OFFICE SPACE anyway.

In the end, I earned 2 degrees and have a nice life well after college but these people still exist out there in every form. They erk me and so I must respond! They are the ones who would give you a fee for some 3 month long rental charge that was 1 minute late on the last day, or love to witch-hunt and highlight the errors of others in order to make themselves feel better. They seem to be there to do nothing but try to STOP others from having fun or getting something back for the every day things in life.

That's all. Nothing serious. I actually have this conversation with old college friends all the time in laughter so not to worry. It is common and I will just go on being what I am being and not being worried about it. I have admitted my Achilels heel though and yet, I never thought I would even see this issue in the miles world--unless they work for the airlines ever-screwing us!


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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Marathon Man,
You seem to be a fairly together person, but perhaps you should let go of the problems you experienced as a young man. It seems that you spend a fair amount of your time recreating the pain you felt at that time rather than healing it and moving on.

Well, enough of my coaching... I hope you have a wonderful day! Don't let others determine your destiny!

I really don't think so.

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Vasant

This scheme is not too different from others like buying money orders and deposit it back to the bank. I don't see why people have no problem accepting the MO scheme but not this one.

How about this? I saw a lot of Ebay auction items which came from people buying stuffs online (like officemax.com) and getting a rebate. How is the moral issue for those people??? In short, a lot of people are gaming the system. This particular scheme is definitely not the worst one I've ever seen.

Yes, debua1k, I am well 'over it' but it is still something that is out there even in the real world all these years later. People at work can be finks to each othere also.

ANYWAY (Well, back to earth, at least)...

FT Wannabe brings up another good point in asking how this compairs to rebates... I think it was mentioned earlier on in the thread but if something is unethical, what should we do? Should we turn ourselves in or something?

Say I did the things in this thread unintentionally... Now, Should I call Home Depot or whatever rebate company, or store and tell them and the bank that I just earned miles? Should they stop?

This is the main question.
I guess it should be left as this:

people should do what they think they must in cases like these. I am beating a dead horse here so I think I am done now. Thanks./

It looks like you think it is OK to be unethical because it is for something small and therefore unimportant. It seems to me that if you are willing to be unethical for something small for which you have little to gain, you won't hesitate to be unethical for something large where you have lots to gain. Your criticism of those with ethics displaying only black and white thinking is 180 degrees off the mark, ethics is the process of making decisions in a world with infinite shades of grey. You are the one who seems to require simplification to black and white by justifying that you are justifying a loophole without a law against it, so it is ok, or "white". Since the very basis of ethics is that it requires self restraint, and you appear to have none, all of our posts are a waste of time for you. The good thing, however, is that rational people have taken the time to step back and give the issue some thought and provided some good intellectual discussion. We can only hope that there are only a few of your type out there and that most of the damage you cause will be only to yourself.