It is unethical IMHO. It's funny how some people want to hold corporations to a higher standard than themselves. I represent several major insurance carriers. Frequently clients want me to lie to the company so they can save some money, but then the same people cry murder when the company charges a $4. installment fee (which is clearly disclosed on the bill). Go figure!

Uh, no. We don't.

In the UK, you could just hurt the credit card issuers. The merchant pays a fee for a Credit Card transaction and gets this back when they refund it onto the credit card. Now, it can be any credit card as these sums are netted off against each other at a high level each day. This means that you buy on a miles earning card and put it back onto a non-miles earning card and then balance transfer the money between the two cards to even out the debt.

There are a myriad of ways to cheat the system but please, LETS NOT !

And I do mean to shout here as it will only hurt the card issuer temporarily before it starts hurting us, the consumer as there is no way that the corporates will lose money.

OK, tell me how I cheat/adjust facts on my tax returns. Not everybody does it (at least not intentionally)...

Some of us believe that in the end, what matters is how we live our lives, regardless of what we can get away with.

Sorry if I sound a little defensive here...

Dan

I remember when I attended a California State University, they sent me back a check for a semester I enrolled in by credit card, but couldn't attend. But it's not something I would want to go out your way for. They don't return 100% of your money, plus I was working on a degree at the time, not trying to get some miles. Obviously, a diploma should be worth more in the long run, than 1,000 frequent flyer miles. But if one is bent on doing this, by-pass state universities (tutition is usually low). Might as well apply to a private university (like USC). Big tuitions you have to pay there, which you probably can get on a credit card. Even then, a chunk of the fees aren't going to be returned to you (like your application fee). Hardly worth it.
As far as returning purchases for cash, maybe you can return small purchases, where the merchant might just eat what they had to pay the credit card company. But if you buy a $15,000 tractor from Home Depot on your credit card, and return it the next day, I wouldn't expect them to give you cash back.

I suppose the whole topic is a tough one. Just asking if it is unethical means that person already had inner thoughts suggesting that they thought it was. So therefore, they should not do it. (Of course, this is not about premarital sex or anything larger like that, which some people have much more important ethical and other controversial, life-questions about. This is about something simpler like freaking FF miles, which havent even got their own currency standards, yet!) Boy, have I opened up some cans of worms, eh?

Now I don't cheet on taxes or my wife, or buy 15k tractors to try to get cash back, and it ain't none of yer business about the premarital sex thang, but when talking about a few miles for things like this, I suppose it is up to the person and the store and the way they both do business on that particular day. There is a sort of self-discression inside us all, eh? Ever run a stop sign at 4am?... You know the one.

In my case, I find it kinda cool to have "discovered" this little diddy in my litle miles world and will keep it in the back of my mind if needed. they'll probably stop this little leak anyway, and so all the more power to 'em! But had HD said they would put the money back on my card, I would have not even worried about it and not posted my comments. So, when they handed me cash, I decided to think this:

I decided that if I ever DO have to return something there again that I never used (like extra tiles in boxes, etc.) and I happen to have used that particular card and happened to be in this kind of over-buy+ return situation again, I would probably ask for cash. Hey, if they could give it to me instead of a charge back, I would take it and whatever benefits come with it. One of them is time. I dont have to go to that non-bank ATM across the street and pay those stupid fees for that same cash. So as for returns and cash back, if they come up with a way to deduct miles for this, so be it. I am not going to tell them how but I sure hope nobody else here does. My goodness!

Therefore, I do not think I am being unethical and am not necessarily going out of my way to do this stuff, but who knows--maybe I one day will just to try it to see about that 15k in cash for my new tractor! thanks for the tip! I might even use it first and then not tell them and still try to get my money back! ha ha.

But it (the little miles thing for probably about 100-200 miles) is something neat to know about in case you have the desire for a quick few free miles and happen to be shopping...

AGAIN: do it if you feel you think it is OK, and do NOT do it if you feel it is not ok. We are only talking about miles in this case.

Hey, once I noticed a letter I got with a stamp on it that was not cancelled. I was able to peal it off and reuse it on a new letter that I had to mail out now, with no chance to visit the PO. How bad was I, really?

Is there a gray?...


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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

how desperate are you for miles?? if everybody started doing similar things, soon we wouldnt be able to return things once they're bought..

Just becaus its legal doesn't make it ethical! If you insist that a law be made for every possible ethical situation, you will have a nation full of laws to govern every tiny aspect of every person's existance, and the huge govt necessary to enforce all those laws. Try the Soviet Union, that was a pleasent place to live, wasn't it? In an ethical society people do what is right because it is right, and then millions of laws aren't necessary.

Naturally it is unethical, but you have already chosen to sell your integrity quite cheap in my opinion.

Weird replies, but I expected as much.

Anyway, as I said, we are talking about miles, not soviets, and not desperation. To talk of these things actually mattering on the scale of how I am, or someone is as a person is silly. If I am seen as 'selling out' because I am one of many who found out you can get some miles by mistake and chose to take them, then that is also very strange.

Oh well, I guess there are a lot of very scared people in here. Don't go get these miles then. I will instead (when it comes to pass my way), and since there will only be one of us doing it, they will not stop it and I will slowly earn more in your black and white world.

Actually MM, I think that it is you who live ina black and white world. No-one I have seen on this board has been against the return of a few tiles or the odd accident at University where they give you a cheque back when you paid by Credit Card.

The difference lies in when you INTENTIONALLY go out ot defraud someone. That is a different can of worms and is in my view not just being dishonest to the company you defraud but also the communtiy at large.

And as the headline on the top of the page says, this is "The worlds most popular Frequent Flyer COMMUNITY".

Like my teacher always said at school when he gave the whole class a detention, "There is always someone who spoils it for everyone"

Have I got the world's worst debit card? When I get cash back from the grocery store I get charged a fee, just as if I were using a foreign ATM.

No fee for cash back on checks, so logically there shouldn't be any for a debit card.

But what's logic got to do with it?

And back to the topic, yes I do think it's unethical. What we appear to be saying is it's not too unethical, so don't lose a lot of sleep over it.

It could be the grocery store policy rather than the bank's. You might want to find out, and then decide who deserves the title of "worst".

SO Bond Boy is saying that I am a bad guy because I let you all know that I wouldn't mind getting a few hundred miles when I buy something and return it, and they offer me cash afterwards.

I would rather focus on this one:

Big Lar tells us that the debit card used rips off fees from the account held (sounds like that bank is pretty unethical too, eh?)

Yet, all the while, I am the one perceived as runing "it" for everyone because why, I LIKED to get those few miles? Is that the kind of thing as to why Big Lar has those fees? Oh pullllease!

...And then others tell me I am desperate because this is over a just few miles-as if it is also bad to even be talking about collecting less than some large sum approved by the elite. Hmmm, is it "cool" or ethical to bash someone for the AMOUNT of miles he or she does?

(Opinion Place.com is also only about 150-300 miles and many use it)

You have others who think I am of some lower form of life because I return things to stores and find out stuff like this, and this action in itself may wreck THAT too.

oooohhhh --careful guys! I may go ahead and tell the Wall Street Journal about this one! Yeah, that's it, I am gonna single-handedly bring down the entire country's ability to accept returns on merchandise! Ha ha ha.

My goodness! Is there no one in here who thinks this thread is nuts, or am I the only one?!

I returned the item, got cash and learned this can get me miles so I suggested it can be done. So shoot me for thinking thoughts that the obvious thought police are hateful of! WOW! I guess the thought police rule the friendly forum that is for... everyone? Hmmm...

As for things being legal by the law, but not necessarily considered "ethical," Let me ask you all this one:

Is declaring bankruptcy ETHICAL (by a single person or by a business)?

It certainly is legal, but do you think it is ethical?

While you are preparing to answer just that one thing for me, ask yourself this too:

Is it ethical or moral to attack someone for having ideas and an open mind that knows there is not just black and white?

But please, let me know what you think about that bankruptcy question... I wanna know. I want to know if this is about attacking people or ideas? I have more entertainment for us all once I hear back on that one.

Thanks.

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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Marathon, if just for once you would stop typing your typical knee-jerk marathon posts and carefully read the other posts in the thread, you will find that most here do not disagree all that much with what you are doing. Rather, the disagreement and objection is with the original poster who advocates intentionally purchasing merchandise to be returned for cash credit. That, IMHO, is morally and ethically wrong, as well as actionable both civillly and criminally.

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-05-2003).]