Actually, there will always be at least three camps:

1. those who see the world in black and white,

2. those who see the world in black, white, and various shades of grey in between, and

3. those who see the world in the full spectrum of the rainbow's colours.

In group 1 I see people who believe that the only two options are to broadcast and idea publicly for all the world to see, or to keep it to yourself.

In group 2 I see people who believe there are a limited number of ways to diseminate ideas, mostly based on internet technology.

And in group 3 I see people who are convinced there are a myriad of ways to diseminate information, including well beyond the internet, are not afraid to suggest whacky ways that may or may not work, and are open to trying them.

Also in group 1 I see people who believe that you either publicly broadcast every idea for all the world to see or else you are a greedy person who wants to keep every idea to yourself, leeching off the others while never contributing.

I'm quite frankly astonished by this philosophy -- we have an obligation to post ideas here? To not post any idea is to cheat Randy, FT, or other posters? This seems preposterous and bizarre.
Fairness is a two-way street. I don't think I've ever seen an airline that believes in "fairness". Otherwise, why would they charge some people 10 times or more for essentially the same product -- the seat on a flight. If they see a way to extract more money from a passenger by expoiting the customer's travel constraints, you can be sure they will.
Absolutely!

So it's OK for them to close the loophole as long as you've already benefited, regardless of whether anyone else has? Would you care if they closed the loopholes beforewards?

Let me say this about that: GoldPoints, ValuMags, 4:1, 8:1, maximum transfers, evaporating points.

A nugget of wisdom.

The problem is when people feel the only possible "outcomes" are that FTers get to benefit from and idea or they don't. While those are possible outcomes, other outcomes, or consequences, are actions on the part of the airlines et al to end the/a practice, to attempt to reneg on the "deal" (Mexico Hilton, UA the first time around, GoldPoints), to change the rules for the worse, to tighten up other more generic benefits, and to make them paranoid enough to go looking for other "loopholes" before people can exploit them. I'm sure there are other consequences that I've not yet discovered or thought of.

An essential truth that I fear will be lost on most. Who is the most altruistic? The person who says I want you to publish everything so I can benefit, even though others after me may not? Or the person who says use your best judgement so the largest number of people may benefit, even though I may not?

As am I. But it is very simplistic (too simplistic, in fact) to simply say the best way to acheive this is to broadcast publicly for all the world to see.

Yet by this piece of enigma you infer you're not prepared to share it here. Fair enough, but it seems contrary to previously expressed views.

Now I understand.

I wish I'd said that.

Unless of course the airline acts first to remove your choice. And everyone else's choice as well.

Really? With who? Fters only? The public at large? The airlines?

And all info? Say, what's your credit card number? Perhaps you meant only information that will benefit you?

That's the dark underbelly of this whole premise, isn't it? We all want the information "shared" so we can benefit from it, but when you get down to the essentials, we really mean only information that benefits us, and only shared with our rather large clique, but not the general public, not with the news media and certainly not with the airlines. So what people really mean is "different degrees" of sharing.

So it's OK for you to take advantage of it, but to take steps to allow others to do so is wrong? How is that different from just keeping the "error" to yourself, and not posting it?


Posting. Promoting. Publishing. Sharing.

These are all nice words used throughout this thread to describe the concept. But let me suggest another word, that more accurately describes the process, at least IMO:

EXPOSING.

thank you Ken hAAmer for exposing what many different posters said/posted so far, and what you think of some statements.

Any summarized proposition(from yourself) now, how to deal with the issue at hand now?

An interesting question that I've flip-flopped on a few times.

I'm not a fan of The List and never signed up. I think that runs counter to what FT is about. At the same time I've read a few comments - one in this thread and others in different threads - from folks saying they tip the airlines off to loopholes and then get a reward from the airlines. This really strikes me as unscrupulous if that loophole was discovered through FlyerTalk. It saddens me to think there might be people on the board who are using it to benefit themselves at the expense of the FT community, which by nature has been very giving.

Personally, there are some things that have been posted that I haven't taken advantage of because they strike me as wrong ... but that's one of those ethical decisions best left to each individual to decide. There have no doubt been some I have taken advantage of that others would see as wrong.

One thing I'm definitely against is criticizing those who do post loopholes and errors. At the same time, I also have seen some of the same people who argue for full disclosure not disclose loopholes they find. That's wrong too.

One thing PremEx does sometimes, is post a good tip way down deep in a thread that appears unrelated. I've picked up some good info that way and it doesn't easily tip off company lurkers.

In sum, if some people want to keep their tips to themslves, so be it, but please don't criticize others for trying to be helpful participants in a community that was built around sharing.

The problem in my opinion is the "one size fits all" attitude. It's all or nothing. You either loudly shout publicly every find you make, or you hoard everything you find. No one seems to be ready to make a measured response, based on the qualities of the find.

There are some times when immediate and widespread dissemination makes sense. There are other times when a more leisurely approach is appropriate. And there are some things that just need a more delicate approach.

"The list" was someone's attempt to insure everyone had a better chance to jump on certain items. Some, perhaps many people, however, made what I believe to be childish attacks upon it until the effort was abandoned. But there must be lots of ways to carefully and widely disseminate information without shouting it at full volume.

BTW, I have no desire or need to take advantage of the currently discussed top elite status for $1000 deal. So whether it comes, goes, stays, or disappears, I don't personally have a vested interest. It won't affect me one way or another.

But it may well now disappear thus precluding those who may benefit from it from actually doing so, now that it has been exposed and made vunerable.

Have no doubt -- it is perfectly legal, prefectly doable, perfectly valuable, and perfectly clever. It's also perfectly within the rights of the airlines and alliances to shut it down, which they can easily do with simple, inexpensive and easy-to-implement changes to their tariffs.

thank you all for your opinions (so far), and for the civilized way to express it.

I've read these threads with interest - as I always appreciate seeing how others feel about issues like this. But this one, above, I find particularly interesting.

Many, like ralfkrippner, see the sale of info on Ebay to be a terrible thing. I personally do not. I probably never would sell information, but I tend to believe that the tranfer of something of perceived value, for an agreed upon sum is perfectly acceptable. It seems a win-win, because the buyers get to decide the price, and would undoubtedly never would visit FT and get the info in any other way.

On the other hand: "But what I meant was that if I would discover a loophole that e.g. would make it possible to re-use electronic tickets again and again for checkin without marking them 'used'" seems perfectly acceptable to some. If I understand it correctly, I would consider this to be theft. It is similar to discovering that it is impossible for a given store to catch you shoplifting, so you tell all your friends to rob them blind. If that happened, some ethical person might actually tell the store owner - at risk of being chastised by the others.

All that said, I think that this FT community is a great place for the sharing of information, and also for ethical debates. I'm not in favor of flaming others for having different opinions - but I do think that all should feel free to give their own opinions about "deals and loopholes". I know that I have changed my own mind, and my own behavior after thinking about things that other people have written.

They should also feel free to post or not post their deals and loopholes - without fear of the loophole police.

[This message has been edited by VolleyballFerd (edited 08-05-2002).]

I posted on page one of this thread... To which Ken hAAmer responds:
That is not what I said. Please reread the above. What I said is that it should be shared with as many people as possible. Because it may be legit!!! What I object to is purposefully and knowingly doing everything in your power to make sure the company doesn't become aware of a possible error!

If by "take steps to allow others to do so is wrong?" includes going out of my way to deliberately hide the error from the companies...yes I would think that is wrong. If the steps taken are deliberate actions to keep the error "quiet" just so it's not discovered by the company...yes, I think that is wrong.

Taking part in an activity that deliberately prolongs a possible mistake by taking actions that conspire to keep the suspected mistake from the company, versus just openly publicizing the mistake, are 2 different issues in my mind.

I'm not saying anyone should have to call 'em up and advise them of your suspicions (and you certainly wouldn't if you did think it was legit), but neither do I think you should hide in the shadows about it.

If you sincerely believe that what you are purchasing could be a legitimate rate or even an error that you think they might honor, by all means go ahead and purchase it and spread the news to whomever you can reach!

But if you suspect that it might be an error, to then take deliberate action to "keep it quiet" IMHO, is wrong. Just go about your business as normal. Don't be afraid to talk about it or call the airline and ask for seat assignments or anything out of the ordinary that you would normally do. IMHO.

If I found myself changing my normal activities because I am worrying about "ruining it for others"...this would indicate to me that in my heart of hearts I suspected all along that I was doing something wrong!

In other words, if you feel that the rate is legit, why would you hide out? What does it say when you find yourself hiding out in the dark shadows?

letiole observes: Agree with the first part and Thanks for noticing on the second part. And I think the second part somewhat addresses Ken hAAmer's excellent comment: What letiole observes about my and many others posting "style" is an example of a measured response. I don't start posts like "Confirm Now...Use 500 Milers Later" at all. I'm not lookin for Glory here.

But neither do I hold back any info in fear of the airline finding out and closing the loophole by reading about it.

In fact, I personally think there is a greater chance of a FlyerTalk reader "finking" out a loophole, than there is the company finding out by stumbling upon it here.

In the above example, I would fully expect a General Mileage Plus member, a Premier or a Premier Executive to call United and object to this loophole, as it is cheating (I hope no one objects to me using the word "cheating" here) them out of upgrade opportunities much more than it is cheating United out of anything!

Regardless, I can look myself in the mirror just fine everytime a United agent gladly allows the switch (which is within their power), knowing that I'm not only doing it in the light of day, but sharing the info with the community as well.

If they close the loophole, fine. Loopholes probably should be closed to be totally fair to all participants. IMHO.

But until they do, to paraphrase Sherlock...I am not retained by United to supply their deficiencies.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-05-2002).]

Gosh, I've benefited so much from FT and all who've posted, if my research led me to knowledge other FFers might be able to use, I would HAVE to post to pay back even a little of what I have received. There would be no option - my conscious wouldn't allow anything else.

And to prove it,
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000038.html

As for Lurkers, those who take but never post, and would hold back any info they, themselves, found, just to selfishly prolong some deal - quite plainly, IMHO, they suck.

As for Lists. I'm all for them. Don't cry just because you weren't invited to the party. And, if part of a List, one agrees to keep close what is being relayed i.e. not post the info. Since I am for Lists, I am for this as well. An agreement is an agreement.




[This message has been edited by lisamcgu (edited 08-05-2002).]

Do people actually think there aren't cliques at FT? That all info might actually be shared with everyone? Amazing thought. I mean, yes, maybe to make it work I have to pretend that it's true, but it won't actually be true.

Meanwhile, I'll just go on, pretending like I belong, posting info I think is useful when people ask about it. I doubt I'll ever find you the latest greatest way to make easy elite level. I haven't ever managed to make such levels myself, not even after reading plenty here on FT. (I just don't have the kind of money and/or travel-heavy job that so many of you have.) But I do know my contributions won't be totally worthless.

I continue to read and post here because I can't possibly ever have enough travel info and I enjoy helping those who I can help. It's enough, really. Plus, the conversation tends to be intelligent and fun, even if it's something in Omni. Hey, yeah, I love a great deal tip or few, but I probably won't get to use most of them.

So I will continue to pretend that no one actually says "That idiot, he doesn't travel very much, what's he doing here, he has nothing of use to me." Or things to that effect. Most people probably don't think such things, and that is what matters.

Rudi,

What a great discussion. I think that information generally should be public. Sometimes however it might be better for the community to actually imply the information instead of outright sharing it. This I think might extend the fun and allow more FTrs to get in. When discussing the loopholes, I think the FT performs the same function in the travel industry as the arbitrageurs do in the financial markets. We simply help to close the loopholes through our actions, so we actually help the companies to work out their glitches while having fun. This is IMHO what we do here. We of course pay our price by investing our time in it, but many of us have fun doing it. Lastly, because we are being observed while observing and sharing information we are creating our own flaw that benefits the airlines and the other travel companies. So the real issue is for how long does a loophole last and how do our actions impact that time frame?

Lisa's loophole above is a classic example of HOW open knowledge sharing develops. She finds and posts something interesting. Someone notices another quirk, and hey presto you may now be 5,000 (or more) CO miles ahead on the deal. As someone who needs 5,000 extra CO miles to lock in an award, I thank her and the others on that thread. (And agree entirely with her sentiments above too. )



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~ Glen ~

Although I find the posts for bonus miles and other ways of beating the system useful, it seems that the airlines have discovered them as well and will close them down.

That being said, I would rather receive an email from other FTers who could forward information I can use and keep this inside knowledge active. Once something like the Baht Run, Mexican Hat Dance, $25 Sheraton New Orleans nights etc. goes public, it dies ever so quickly before most of us ever get the opportunity.

If you find something I can use, send me an email. I will try to reciprocate when possible as well as I do get information here in Asia not available in the US.

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If it is such a small world, why have I been on this airplane for more than 12 hours?!?

Vague allusions work for me, too.

So how much do the carriers pay "narcs"?

As one of those (formerly)general public no-knowledge people and lurker but not seller of information, I can attest to the helpfulness of FT (as well as a friend that led me here) in locating deals. For a trip with only 700 actual miles logged, the bonuses put me up to 21K (holy first class seat batman, this stuff works!) For anyone who is a relative newbie such as myself (notice number of postings)if there is anything to fill out in order to get more miles whether or not you qualify, remember "When in doubt, FILL IT OUT". The worst you could get is a declined AMEX card application or some odd email, but the benefits could out weigh those minor inconveniences. I don't have a ton on knowledge on what other benefits are out there but thank GOD my learning curve is is improving by geometric proportions! WOOHOO

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Ohhhh so THAT'S what First class is!

[This message has been edited by KahunaJax2anywhere (edited 08-06-2002).]

Post it.

If the deal is meant as a promotion, so much the better.

If it is an error, let the laws of economics and ethics apply. The more FF who take advantage of the error increase the cost to the business of making errors. That provides incentive on all sides.

As long as yield management is a practice, such anomolies are likely to occur.