I never received the FIRST ALLEGED CLIQUE MEMBERSHIP CARD!!!

Dorian, Yes groups do develop (I REFUSE TO CALL THEM CLIQUES) but at least in my experinence I have many groups of friends from this board, all I like (no love... love as family) for different reasons. and only one really bad experience.

You are free to post. My concern is that one say SOMEONE is going to cough up a hairball over posting copyrighted material. I know I would if my pinkonline travel stuff ended up here without attribution.

It's easy to write a short summary of a story like:

"A United Airlines Premier Executive is finding himself wooed by the competition. Here's the story at <A HREF="http://www.thestoryofmeow.com"" TARGET=_blank>www.thestoryofmeow.com"</A>

So wait it out Dorian and things will ease once the focus shifts to other things: like "what's going on at the CATMANDO 2"

(just need a laptop for real time updates!)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum94/HTML/001065.html

'nuff said?

Dorian,

You've got e-mail

Baze

It's still a free country. I for one find no problem with doc posting 10,000 times. I find some very informative and bypass those I don't. Telling him to reduce his postings is getting awfully close to censorship. I want the right to see everything he and others thinks is important and don't want someone else to affect my right to see and read what I want.
Also troubling are statements that include the word "we". Has someone been appointed to speak for me? Please let me know. I would have a BIG problem with this.
Finally, I have a suggestion, besides being nice to each other. Perhaps Randy could included a function that would allow individual viewers to block out all postings from posters that they don't wish to view. This would seem to solve a lot of problems.

Years back when I ran a BBS (pre-internet), I put wrote a neat feature called Squelch. A user could squelch people he didn't care to hear from. Pretty nifty.

Even better was the WEENIE class. Anyone designated as a weenie was automatically on everyone's squelch list EXCEPT HIS. So a weenie would post a message, and he could read it, but no one else could. Eventually he'd go away as everyone was ignoring him.

I'm not suggesting "weenie" class here, but a squelch could be handy for some folks who seem to have personality conflicts with other members here. Don't like hearing about my kids, squelch me. Don't want to hear of FT's unofficial feline mascots, squelch Catman.

That isn't censorship, it is exercising a personal choice to ignore something/someone.

I suspect it is WAY too much coding though, and I know that FT doesn't do too much with that. Possible suggestion for next version of UBB??


------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

About posting copyrighted articles -

My friend at work and I took up the friendly debate about copyrights. He took the side that it is in violation to post a copyrighted article and I took the opposing. Although we came up with many gray areas, my friend was unable to give a reason how posting a legal copy of a copyrighted article is a violation of a copyright. So based on our debate, I conclude that as long as you have a legal copy of an article, it is ok to post it on a bulletin board.

I read only the first page of replies, but I think I get the idea of this post.

I just wanted to alert you of a news service that I subscribe to. Every day they'll send you an e-mail that is a digest of all the news stories travel related, from many sources-CNN, ABC News, airline press releases, etc. They give the headline, a short two sentence description to decide if you want to read it, then the link to the original source.

The website is www.airlinebiz.com. Scroll down and you'll find a box to enter your e-mail address.

It is also interesting because it includes FAA/NTSB reports, so you can read about all the minor things that never make the news, like a baggage cart hitting a plane or CAT with minor injuries. The only time you'd hear of things like this is if it happened to your plane, and you can see that they are relatively common (compared to crashes).

Sorry to anyone who posted about this service or anything similar to it in pages 2 and on. I just don't have the energy to sift thru all those replies.

[This message has been edited by BizJet (edited 03-04-2000).]

I have to throw in my $.02 now that I have read through 4 pages. This community certainly has changed from last year. I for one have no problems with Doc's or Auturo's postings! It is up to me to either read them or ignore them. I choose to enter Flyertalk to read the postings and I pick and choose the topics that interest me.

I do enjoy Doc's postings of the news because I can scan what is happening in the travel industry while not having the time or money to read every newspaper or magazine that may be travel related. If it doesn't interest me then I skip it. I have not lost any money nor time.

I also enjoy Auturo's postings as it forces me to slow down and try to understand what he is trying to say and usually he has something very meaningful to say!

This board does have one "policeman" that goes goes out of his way to try and keep this board clean and civil and that is the Catman. He does this unofficially so that the board doesn't go down like the first Flyertalk BB. I feel it is an honor for him to select me to be the ACTING CMDR CATCOP while he is away! For those who have not had the pleasure of meeting him, he is a very genuine man that looks to this community as his friends and always looks forward to meeting you! He doesn't get paid to be the CMDR CATCOP but he enjoys trying to keep this board friendly and civil.

My wish is for the civility to come back to this bulletin board again like it was around the PIP time. I really enjoyed loging in twice a day to see what was happening and who was posting. Now everyone just wants to pick on someone else and most of the get togethers have stopped. The friendly community that I joined last year, that flew across the country to have a beer or dinner with you has turned on each other.

I really enjoyed reading the postings here each day because I always felt that I would usually learn something from someone. I have made a lot of friendships within the community and always look forward to seeing them again and meeting new friends when I travel. But I am starting to feel like some of the others who want to take a break from all of this and take a "time out".

I know that I just threw in more than $.02, but I just wanted to say how I felt and to get back to being our friendly selves again!

Thank you Senior acting CMDR CATCOP Newself for those kind and true sentiments. (The personal stuff to me brought tears to my eyes! You have now about 10 yards of beer coming to you!)

I think as Raeban has suggested (on the suggestion of someone else: NJDavid?) let's all take a deep breath and get back to trying to get along.

Ok, let's focus on a few more fun things:

*Travel news
*Happy thoughts.
*what I am plotting for the CatMando (I just need someone to post real-time reports on the DO since I don't have a laptop!)

Have a MEOWY weekend. I love all of you!

Sorry, I've been gone and don't have the patience to now read every message in this threard, but here's my thoughts:

1) Most "In the News" items are from companies, if you want to copy the press release, just go to the company's website and copy it from there, they are not usually copyrighted since the companies want their press releases distributed as widely as possible.

2) When it is truly a news story that's not just a regurgitation of a company's press release, write a brief synopsis of the news story (which would not break a copyright) then post the link to the news story. If there is no online version of the news story, just write a little less brief synopsis ...

Well it's nearly a complete week now. As noted, I've already given up posting news items and also withdrawn from the NYC "DO." Still the incesssant flaming persists. What's next?

BTW,FWIW- from FT terms of service agreement:

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use FlyerTalk to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by FlyerTalk."
and also:
"We at FlyerTalk also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you."

Presumably these rules apply to everyone. Or don't they?

Taken from: http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-di...troll-faq.html


"Then there are some who are accused of being trollers yet do not
agree. They argue that they are only having a discussion. They call
it "sarcasm" "irony" or witty banter. There are many versions of this
kind of person, they argue and cause an uproar and don't understand
the uproar they cause. Others may not have understood their intention
and both sides may have gotten a little too caught up in the
discussion. It is possible to try and help these people understand
the uproar they cause using e-mail. Sometimes the cause is hopeless.

Bottom line is that every news group at one time or another has a
"troll". Someone who everybody learns to love to hate. The Troll
changes from news group to news group, from e-mail address to e-mail
address. Ever changing and nearly impossible to keep up with. Below
you will find out how to deal with these trolls."


"A) Sit on your hands and bite your tongue. Reread the post. It may
be a new person to the Internet who has innocently hit your raw nerve.
B) Look at the [thread] line and see how many groups the poster has
posted to without replies.
C) Continue to sit on your hands.
D) Look at the top to make sure that someone hasn't forged the poster's name. [Look at the number of posts that say "stop picking on me" or "post the rules" or "enforce the rules evenly" or "here's what's being done to me" or "I've decided to quit" Or any other look at me / hear from me / stop doing this to me / me /me /me post]
E) Stop sitting on your hands, but *Don't* reply to the post.
F) Read the alt.bigfoot FAQ : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bigfoot/
G) Sit and think.
H) Read about the Gullibility Virus. This is a very funny editorial
to be passed along to your friends who send you all those hoaxes : http://www.sccu.edu/faculty/R_Harris/warning.htm
And why Disney is *not* giving away 13,000 free trips, why Bill Gates
is not collecting e-mail addresses (and many other hoaxes): http://www.deja.com/article/406150013
And Hoaxes on the Internet: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html
I) Whatever you do, don't reply to the post.
J) Sit and think. Go clean that green stuff off the sides of your
fish tank like you have been meaning to do. Try to remember that the
Internet is not real life. It is not worth getting upset over. The
news group you are so involved in would forget that you exist if you
stop posting for 6 months (most likely even quicker). Real life goes
on with or without the Internet.
K) "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's
game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be
indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing
infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_

Hopefully if you have done all these steps your blood pressure has
gone down a few points.

The above applies to *all* posts that are trolls. The post may only
be to one topic, but none the less it is a troll to try & cause
problems in the newsgroup. DO NOT POST! It will only get more people
upset at you than at the original flamer."


[This message has been edited by Dr. PfP (edited 03-07-2000).]

Gee and I thought nothing was going on in this forum. Why is it defined as a group sometimes but a clique at other times? Yes it's a rhetoical question.

Sorry but I don't see clique applying here at all. The whole discussion started because someone warned someone else regarding a probable copyright violation. Others defended the violator and some even stated 'they didn't care if they violated copyright laws'. I guess I don't get that kind of attitude.

It's pretty straightfoward (to me) that if you copy and paste and article from a subscription service that you are in violation of the terms of service agreement you agreed to at the time of subscription. In fact most people who engage in this activity know full well that what they are doing is wrong. And if they don't, wel.... Further, if I were the owners of that service I would be very agressive in my pursuit of those violators. Think Disney.

It has already been well stated how the idea of intelectual property works. Is this any different than copying songs off of a CD and giving them to your friends. I think not - You are stealing income from someone. I have no problem calling people on these types of violations.

Essxjay, Premex, Catman - you have all tried to warn against the abuses. It's sad that some people really don't care. In the end it ruins it for everyone and the guilty parties move on and damage something else.

I just found this thread via mention of a TalkMail archive on :

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/003236.html

Well, Doc's posts are often VERY interesting to me. And VERY useful. I certainly do not read 20 news websites a day to pick up on all this stuff, nor does anyone else except him methinks. That's my 2� worth. If the heading line does NOT interest me, I simply do not click on to it. All of us clearly has that option.

If Randy had to pay a staff member to glean all these news type posts relating to airlines, aviation, hotel chains and rental car firms etc, I am sure he would prefer not to. The fact he appears to have no problem with Doc posting them, and the fact Randy alone is paying for the use and bandwidth of this board indicates to me his clear approval and endorsement of the postings.

Randy Petersen is of course the host of this board. We are simply guests in his house here, and he calls the shots. This is a community, and we all gain something from being here.

Some provide input, others simply take that input and contribute nothing. And others for some reason unknown to me seem simply to delight in b!tching about the input of others which clearly takes 100's of unpaid hours a month and which is of interest to MANY.

That is what communities are about. We are all different. Vive the difference, and my compliments to Doc (and many others) for their amazing efforts to share knowledge and news.

I too have always worked in newspapers and publishing magazines. And do so to this day. There is a small range of my copyright articles published here:

http://www.GlenStephens.com/column.html

I feel certain the news journals mentioned or linked in Doc's posts will have NO copyright or legal objection whatever to a non revenue raising use of their own topics they themselves post on web pages for that reason. There is NO legal restriction IMHO on doing this to my knowledge, PROVIDING you do not charge a fee for the information or otherwise try to profit from it.

That reason being to advertise their journals and sites to as many persons as possible AND to have you click on the numerous advertising Banner links theron. Those links generate BIG revenue.

Why are those sites free? For that reason and that reason alone basically. NO poster above seems to have stumbled across this clear reality of the year 2000. They WANT you and me, and others to visit their site.

The WSJ site I click onto via Doc's link begs me to sign up for a trial subscription. If I do not click on that link on FT I will never see their offer for WSJ. Do you REALLY think CNN or WSJ etc will sue Randy coz I took a subscription to their services?

Go to www.Google.com or any other decent search engine and type in "United Airlines" or "Hilton Hotels" or "Hertz Rent a Car" or "Boeing Corporation" etc. You'll will get several 1000 web "hot links" to sites and news articles about these publicly listed companies.

Do you suppose for one second that Alta Vista or Google or Yahoo pay one CENT in user fees or copyright or licence fee to any of these newspapers or journals? No way. This is the web .. FREE exchange of useful information.

That is what it does, and that is why it was set up. And long may it prosper. And Randy, and Doc and all others who assist in making THIS site a wealth of fabulous information for people all OVER this globe.

And on the "plus" side I personally have never seen any news items in my time here about cats, or "man bites dog" or whatever appears to have been the norm 6 or 9 months back, so self-policing DOES seem to have worked pretty much after all?

They should be posted "In the News" not on every board unless it is germane to the topic. Additionally, posting that there is no news is not "news" (i.e. when an airline sends out a broadcast email that there are no specials that week, that is not news). Otherwise everyone can start posting that there are no specials today, an airline web site went down for 10 minutes, the line was busy at Delta, etc. It's nonesense and clutter