kokonutz --- I tried to take the matter up with Mr. Hegel -- BUT, he didn't have an e-mail address listed in his profile !!!!! Besides, he is only a junior member with one post --- AND THAT ONE POST WAS COPYRIGHTED INFORMATION !!!!! On the subject of noise, I have but one question, IF A TREE FALLS IN THE WOODS AND THERE IS NO ONE AROUND TO HEAR IT>>>>>>>>>you know the rest

Enjoying a beautiful day here in my hometown of LAS - I will now CEASE AND DESIST - kazman

(Seeing that others have expressed my views more eloquently and that this is going nowhere fast, I choose to delete this post.)

[This message has been edited by kyklin (edited 03-02-2000).]

PG, I see. You have clearified your position for me perfectly. Thank You.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 03-02-2000).]

I remember an old saying. "Praise in public, reprimend in private".

If you have an issue with someone, e-mail them. If they have no e-mail in their profile make a simple post and say you have something you would like to discuss with them and you would like them to e-mail you. If they don't e-mail you then you are probably wasting your breath anyway.

dingo,

Actually, I do work for an AP-member news service, and am well aware of the applicable copyright and state libel laws.

I surf FT on my own time.

Dorian,

My warning shot was intended to serve two purposes:

First, to stem the flow of posts that violate Flyertalk's Terms of Service, which each one of us has agreed to;

and second, to plead for some quality-control of content, if not some restraint in the quantity.

Suppose Jane Costello of the WSJ, for example, were to mention in casual convertion to her editors that their paper's content is reprinted here verbatim? Do you realize how fast that information would go up the chain of command and to the paper's legal liaison? Do any of you really want to risk putting Randy in the inenviable position of having to deal with their lawyers? Do you realize that he would most certainly be required to turn over names and email addresses of copyright violators if it came to that?

If you want your very own letter of cease and desist from a attorney representating a news organization, fine. I don't think you do. I've seen cc:'s of such letters posted in our newsroom from time to time, and they are pretty blunt about the repurcusions of ignoring such a request. I just figured the forewarning might be better coming from an informed member within the Flyertalk community.

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 03-02-2000).]

Gee, Ken- what's wrong? You don't like being criticised? Sad to hear. VERY surprising. I'm sorry. Funny thing, neither do I!! Astounding to hear!!!

Yet, I purposely declined to use the obnoxious "quote" style of using your very own words against you, as routinely applied by some FTers vs others. And I do not want to be offensive to you or anyone.

Also, can you distingush between being criticised for ones actions and personal attacks?

Yes, I noted an article that you posted verbatim, thus violating the copyright law SIX months ago! All I did was apply the words of another FTer, a friend of yours, to your post, where it applies without question. That is it! Again, if you don't like it, I'm sorry, as I said.

The very point is that it is six months old!!! It's been going on for as long as I know of!! I should go back a year!

I did the same to another flagrant violation:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000630.html

This was done to illustrate/highlight a point that some other FT'ers refuse to acknowlege, NOT to punish or highlight anyones indiscretions.

Regarding your contention that "Clearly, 'you'(r) offense and mine are not equal," I fail to see your point once again. I NEVER said they were!! Even if they are, in fact, and Im not saying so now. It's irrelevant, IMHO. As I noted after your inaccurate assertions posted in that thread, offenders are offenders and there are also repeat offenders. So what?

Seems to me that there are many differences such as the fact that I've admitted the error/wrongdoing. Seems I'm alone in that regard.

Another correction if you don't mind, it was essxjay who said "silence is golden" and I agreed with her. Yes, I will practice more of it, but reserve my right to defend myself and I always will. And be forewarned, I can talke off the kid gloves if absoulutely necessary.

Thanks for your comment"...and you cannot stop posting can you?"

Your psychoanaylsis is worth its cost- NOTHING!

"I am not telling you to stop nor limit your right to do so..."

You are doing precisely that, it would seem, despite what you say.

"but apparently you are just making promises you cannot keep. Clearly you love getting the attention."

Whatever you say Ken! Yes, I initiated this fiasco, of course. It's all my fault! Please be serious. As I noted above, your petty psychoanaylsis is worth its cost- NOTHING! But please continue to provide it if you so choose- better though perhaps in OMNI!!

"Finally Doc, I would strongly advise you to stop your personal attacks aginst me" here :

Yeh, that's terrible Ken. Please wake yourself up and take a look at what remarks you and others have made to me in the past and even today.

Do you think "insult(s)" is/are a one way street? It's NOT the case, I assure you. I would strongly advise you to stop your personal attacks aginst me!

As you other FTers have so often said, I stand by my words. I will defend myself vigorously against this nonsense!

BTW- I guess we are using last names now? I guess you thought people might be confused using doc or Mark. Or perhaps you were just trying to be overly respectful. If the later is the case, you should address me as Dr. then but I'd personallly prefer Mark or doc- if that matters to you! Shall I adress you by your last name as well?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/002351.html

arturo fed up wiff thes werds. an they jus awl werds. arturo redy fore sum axshun an axshun es fore awl of us two lik each othr an postie en moderashun, knot jus "cut and paste" postie. thes cocha-del-toro goin on hear es weigh b-low the IQ of thes folks. evin b-low arturos IQ. kno won goin to wen thes beeg lllllloooonnnnnn postie kontest, sew, arturo sey putt a lock on et an klose thes thred, pleese talkflier webperson!!!

------------------
loving, caring, honest, intelligent, empathetic, creative, and giving.

What passion, all. Intent goes a long way with me, and until someone can convince me that Doc is trying to greedily self-promote or enrich, I am going to assume that his intentions are honorable. Is it such a great leap of faith to think that Doc believes that what he is doing is of value to FTers. And, while all of his posts will never appeal to all of the people, some of his posts will, I suspect, appeal to a healthy minority of the community.

Self policing is an oxymoron when applied to a posting Board. Policing suggests authority and power, as well as a paramilitary hierarchy. Self policing equals anarchy. With the exception of Randy, each poster has exactly the same amount of power. So, unless we want to charter a democracy to vote people in and/or out, the only form of self policing that would work would be a filter that an individual could use to freeze out a specific poster.

Copyright scholars have commented. Clearly, if the New York Times issued a cease and desist, all bets would be off. But the Times can protect their own interests. Until then, if we censor Doc, then how can we not censor somebody else?

I equate Doc's postings with pornography, and not in a bad way. While it is there, nobody is putting a gun to your head to partake. Doc carefully titles his posts so that you know what you're getting into. 85% of it is of no use to me, but I don't begrudge the 30 seconds it takes to scan topics.

The knock on Doc regarding getting a life is ungentlemanly. It's his time.

So, while an auto-da-fe may be appealing, I don't think that Doc deserves to get flamed Maid of Orleans style.

Ok, ... a follow-up

On a person level, some people have a problem with the news posts on here. That's fine...seams that some people were just venting.

Reading about the copyright statements...

As someone brought up, online articles are often real-time a do not always remain at their link, so it is not always practical to simple give a link, although that is probably the best way to give people a way of reading an article.

So, if in my reading, I find an article, I will copy it to my own homepage and then provide a link to it, that way it will be my own personal copy and it will not be in violation of copyright. I think everyone will agree that this should be acceptable? or not?

Kokonutz posts, and I quote (to avoid violating any copyright laws

You do have to admit: FT looks more and more like a typical internet bulletin board
every day (at least outside the specific airline forums)

And that really is sad! It's why I won't even go near anything travel related over AOL or other places. Such dribble.

Now on this issue of people only helping those helping others: I disagree. The problem is there is so MUCH material here and so little time it is often difficult to answer EVERY question and concern.

I do try to help people, whether a new poster or a seasoned veteran. Sometiems if it's an old question I leave it to soemone else to give it a shot! (Hey! for example it was responding to a newbee that I found one of my bestest friends on F-T: wanderlust.)

What PremEx did was good with teh U-A site. In fact two of friends NON Flyertalk members got some valuable information from it.

And I don't see this cliquish nature that some members are accused of being part of (I've been accused of being part of this alleged clique by some people.) Well if there is one, where's my membership card and what's the secret handshake?

Guess what folks? the outsiders like some of my non-traveling friends think WE ARE ALL PART OF THE CLIQUE CALLED FLYERTALK!!! So congratuattions, we are ALL IN IT and in it good (including the newbees!)

essxjay, to be honest, i don't care 1% what jane costello tells anyone in her office...i will continue to post AND read copyrighted material here on FT.

Is this the 'beginning of the end'? Sure seems that way to me.

I do agree somewhat with the 'clique' comment regarding FT. I really believe denying this 'feature' is short sighted...it is natural for such groups to form. It may be negative or positive...I don't know which...but it exists.

Dorian

Catman, a duplicate membership card is on it's way out to you.

Sincere apologies to PremEx.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-03-2000).]

Accepted. Thank You.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 03-03-2000).]