We have been buying coast-to-coast tickets (over 5,000 miles) for $240. That's first level elite for $1,200. It is also PremEx for $2,400.

But, of course, PremEx is EXACTLY right. Once you are locked into a loyatly program, you'll pay more for a ticket rather than blow off the miles.

I do exactly as DOC says. I will go to Europe 4-5 time in Jan/feb when the fares are about $300 RT. I will fly on NW(EWR-MSP-CDG & back, for example. Each RT is about 9,000 miles =~$1,500 for 45,000 miles. Throw in 1 Rt to BKK (20,000 miles) for ~$750 and you are at 65,000 miles for ~$2,500. A few ewr-iah-sea Rts on CO (6,600 miles) at $200 each and $3,500 for 75,000 miles is very doable if you work at it. Note I do have a full time job, so a lot of this is over weekends and I do spend at least 2 nights in Europe on a European Trip),. I find most of my specials thru the www.bestfares.com website that I visit 2-3 times a day. As Platinum ELite, those 75,000 status mile turn into ~ 170,000 miles for awards in my account. AT 2 cents a mile it equals $3,400 so I'm even, at worst. But I tend to spend the miles on things like F/C international trips, so I figure I get a lot more than 2 cents/mile. My warped mind tells me that the airlines are now paying me to fly. What a game!!!
Note that I also agree that someone paying full fare should have priority over a Platinum elite for any seats still available
when they book.
Finally, I think I have an advantage over most FFers by being CO Platinum and can access both NW and America West and get status miles on CO for flying them . This gives me a lot more options for cheap trips
than most programs.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 12-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 12-03-1999).]

Whoa! There are people out there who think that the full-fare payers are getting a "good deal" by earning elite status through fares paid???!!! I'd suggest it's those low-fare payers who are getting the "good deal" of elite status.

I'm on the opposite side of this situation and think there are entirely too many of you elites muscling in on my full-fare first class travel.

I am also stuck in a fortress hub with few convenient choices and very high fares. Also, my company's policy is first class for flights over 2 hours (thank you very much). A recent flurry of business activity for me in the Pacific Northwest had me flying back and forth quite a bit. My normal airline's schedule wasn't terribly convenient at times and so I was forced to connect through Denver on United. I have absolutely no status with United and think I had an account balance of 25 miles or something like that.

I'm not so sure I like sharing what my company paid for with all the elites. First, on check-in I have to wait in the "regular" first class line with the lower form of United elite frequent flyer (of which there are many). While there is a nice separate line for the fewer 1k demi-gods, flying on $29 efares no doubt, who get preferential treatment at the counter.

Then, when they go to board the plane, I'm involved with the stampede at the door as first class, 1k, premex, platinum, tutoniam, magnificum, dogs, cats, etc are "invited to pre-board". Well, on some of these west-coast routes that means pretty much 75% of the aircraft. Suddenly I'm jockeying to put my bag somewhere while the 80 premex on the flight demand their god-given right to overhead space. One flight from Portland was particularly amazing.

Then I have to share the first-class cabin with many people who hadn't paid the first class fare for that route (though I'm sure the years pain and suffering back in economy are payment-in-kind). Perhaps I'm not getting the meal I want, or the level of service I'd like because first-class is packed.

To those of you wishing to separate the concepts of "loyalty" and money paid, I'd suggest that there is no difference and if you think there is then you're deluding yourselves. Certainly the airlines aren't interested in creating "loyalty", they're interested in creating assured revenue streams, ie. "money". If they call them "loyalty programs" or frequent-flyer programs, then that's just good marketing.

It seems that the notion of a first-class upgrade benefit has morphed into a "right".

Also, at times, I read on these boards the interesting discussions about non-revs and employees being seated in first-class and potential displacements and lack of upgrades as a result. The American boards bubble with sightings of "employees walking to the back". Their proper place no doubt according to some. Why shouldn't I, as a full-fare first class flyer expect the same for all the non-first-class payers?

Don't get me wrong, I hold elite status on my hometown, hub airline and when I travel personally on a discounted fare I sure enjoy checking-in at the 1st class desk and the potential for an upgrade. But all this loyalty=miles/segements and not money spent smacks of wanting your cake and eating it too. Consider yourselves lucky, because most businesses consider their best customers the ones who spend "the most" money, not who visits the store the most or orders the most. It just so happens that generally there is a high degree of correlation between those two groups.

It's not the high fare payers who are "getting a good deal" with elite status. That's normal business practice. It's the low-fare payers who are getting the good deal by being able to achieve valuable customer status just because they're persistant.

tfjim says: "But all this loyalty=miles/segements and not money spent smacks of wanting your cake and eating it too."

And the problem with that would be????

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 12-05-1999).]

tfjim, I was going to post a long response to your message, but let me just capsulize it...

Your employer pays for First Class for flights over 2 hours...and all you've done is complain about it. You might be in the top 5% of flyers that have that luxury.

You may need to do one of 2 things...either learn to 'massage' the system (that's what we do here), or find a job with less travel.

If you think it gets a whole lot better that what you've experienced, it doesn't. Those of us who travel as much or more than you, know what to expect & how to play the game.

Sorry for the rant...

I think boarding should be in the order:

People paying first class
Elite members upgraded to first class
Others upgraded to first class
Elite members in coach
Full fare coach
By rows

But that ain't gonna happen

tfjim, well said!

You are right: loyalty means money, for the airlines it's a consistent revenue stream. "Loyalty" is a euphemism. It means something tangible when we take an inconvenient flight, or a connection when there is a direct flight available on another (non-elite) airline. They have locked us in, they are masters at it!

It might be easy to say for those people who the company allows them to buy First/Business class ticket. I only buy J class ticket for overseas travel. Otherwise, for domestic I only purchase lowest fare. I often stay over the weekend to get a lower fare. Some of you might argue full fare will justify change fee, however, change fee are only $100 for domestic travel. However, for those who just don't have the time to stay over weekend, then you've got no choice.

We've earned the upgrades by earning the elite status. That elite status came from many trip in coach. By buying a full fare, you've already been rewarded with benefits such as being able to change your ticket without penalties, fully refundable. That's the reason you buy full fare. Those are already big benefits over discounted tickets. Other than that, it's just a ticket for a seat just like the discounted tickets. Airlines sell discounted tickets to award those who are willing to stay over the weekend. FF programs are designed those to who travel with them frequently not to those who give them the most revenue. Note that the airline doesn't say you'll make PLATINUM/1K by giving them $XXX per year?? Although they are willing to place you higher on the list within the same group of elites if you are paying higher fare such as what AA is doing.

For some people like tfjim, to complain like these, you are being very selfish. Why not just suggest the airline block off the whole F class for full fare people? Then the airline will be out of business if not for all those frequent flyers. I personally value upgrades as the most important aspect of my travel. The airline gives out those incentives to keep you flying with them.

Regards,
Empress

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited 12-05-1999).]

FF programs are to some like crack and booze is to others: addictive and very difficult to drop. But very good marketing tool for the airlines, as confirmed by these forums and many others. Airline attitude: if it ain't broke, don't fix it, just squeeze a bit more from it as load factors permit. And really, nothing we say on these forums is going to make an iota of difference, other than provide some relief for writers; airlines are in fat city and happy as fat cats these days. For customers-members, it's all lagniappe, or, if one prefers a more theological base, grace, meaning unmerited goodness bestowed upon us. And we can always walk away from the programs if we really are unhappy with them.



PS: There was a time, before 1982, I think, when the F class cabin was filled with full fare F passengers. No sticker upgrades, no discount fare passengers, just passengers who paid for a F class ticket. That was nice, pleasant, cool.

This is a fascinating thread and ties in nicely with the quotes attributed to Randy Petersen in today's NYT regarding AMEX's new "black" card (ie the Centurion).

This card, for $1000/year, gives the holder intermediate elite status at four airlines. Petersen says "'Letting people buy their way into selective upgrades damages the relationship the airlines have with the true frequent fliers who flew their way there, the people who earned it the old-fashioned way,' he explained. 'It's like old money versus new.'"

I don't fly enough to qualify for the most elite levels on frequent flier programs and barely hang onto my AA Gold status every year.

And since AA cut my hub back a few years ago (BNA) and since SWA and Delta Express are becoming more and more important here, it's been getting harder and harder to even find a plane that has a FC section on it!

Because of these factors, I usually just pay real money for FC tickets - say on US Air for those trips to DC. Even on AA, if I absolutely want to be assured a FC seat, I buy it, rather than go through the extreme stress of trying to get an upgrade. AA always holds 2-4 seats out for "revenue" and doesn't release them until gate check-in.

Because there are two elite levels above me, my hit rate on AA for a FC upgrade is down to about 50%. On some runs, I always get it - on others I virtually never get it.

So, I just pay for it (or the client pays outright if it's a FC gig, or I pay the diff between full-fare coach and FC, which is usually not much at all).

Then, as a full-fare passenger, I think I should receive the best possible treatment, even though I may not be as "loyal" as someone who flies that airline much much more than I do.

But after reading the comments on this board, I have a lot more respect for frequent-fliers.


------------------
"Living well is the best revenge"

The programs are about loyalty. And loyalty equals $$$ over the long haul. I learned to look at my customers in terms of how much they will spend with me over a 10 year period of time. It might not seem like much on an annual basis, but it adds up over 10 years.

Randy is absolutely right on re: the Amex Black card. I'm glad UA did not sell out for this deal.

DG1: with very minor exceptions I agree with your boarding process. My call order:
First class (including upgrades)
Top level elite
All other elites
Coach from back to front.

Shadow, my posting was meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I can't figure out how to put those **** little smiley faces in my posts.

Anyway, it's true that I certainly have no reason to complain, and I wasn't. I'm comfortable and I'm always assured of my seat whereas alot of folk go through gymnastics to get their upgrade. Honestly, I don't begrudge anybody anything, but in a few months now of viewing these boards I notice there is a tendency to stratify flyers into their appropriate elite level. There are the upturned noses at sharing first class with the employees and non-revs, and indignation at not getting an upgrade because of those people.

And to say that I'm being selfish???!!! You've got to be kidding!! I'd say look in the mirror. People who didn't even pay the fare for first-class are talking about "deserving" this or that, or having "earned" this or that. Geez.

I do get my hackles up at the elites who want to get their status and then close the door behind them. My post was merely meant to remind everyone that there is still a minority out there who pay to sit in first class and for everyone else it's still a great reward, not right.

[This message has been edited by tfjim (edited 12-05-1999).]

tfjim:

To put the little smiley faces (or the sad frown ), you use the colon (or semi-colon if you are winking) and the open or close parenthases ")" or "(" depending on your mood.

Now you can join in on the fun

[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 12-05-1999).]

I'm with Vulcan - I'll earn 1K status on United next week, having spent about $5,700 on leisure fares. In fact, I could have cut it below $5,000 if I had gotten rid of some of the "expensive" (per mile) domestic trips and added another Hong Kong (at under $500 for an e-fare).

So I would definitely lose if United went to taking $$ revenue into account, but I would certainly understand if they did so. Then again, somebody referred to an AA thread where AA was loosening up their Exec Plat qualifications, so maybe the trend is away from counting revenue.

tfjim said:
Which pretty well makes my point. Thanks to a generous company policy (good for you!!! ...although I suspect I am paying for that perk every time I pick up a six pack of bud ), you have no need to be loyal to TWA, or UA, or anybody else for that matter. Therefore, over the long haul, because you will take whichever carrier is most convenient, you cannot be counted on for recurring revenue to any particular airline.

Which is fine, since they can simply gouge you when you DO fly with them. But as JeffS poiunts out, to the enlightened CEO who is concerned with long term profits, I am a more important customer both in terms of loyalty and money since I will make a double connection twice a week to keep the revenue flowing to UA.

Think of it this way: would you rather sell five bottles of bud at a profit of $2 per bottle or sell 100 bottles of Busch at a profit of 25 cents per bottle ??? Before you answer, assume that you are pouring the exact same beverage into either bottle (just as the airplane seat will be there whether someone who paid full fare for it or not sits there).
Which is your better customer deserving more attention and perks????

OK, it's a strained analogy, but I thought you might appreciate the free advertisement...based on my assumptions reading your profile ...