Number of elites
 

I'm sure that airlines must closely guard their FF numbers, but does anyone have an idea about the number of elite members on various airlines? This would encompass 1st-tier, Middle-tier and platinum, which seems to be what most programs have these days. I'm constantly amazed by the number of UA, AA, & US mid-level and above elites who struggle to get upgrades. I know that some of the cabins can be small, but I thought most airlines were expanding their F/C.

I am sure there are more than you think. I am always battling for upgrades. The one thing that is werid, Airlines penalize the last minute buyer. The elites who pay the most.

For example, there are so many elites who fly week after week the same destination (as I do), but many fly on last minute notice and their upgrades are harder to get.

Oh well... sorry about the tangent.

Its been previously said on this board that there is approximately 30,000 United 100K flyers. Since UA is the largest US carrier, I would imagine that other programs would have a proportional amount based upon the number of FF members & pax flown?

'terp...you also need to factor in the large concentration of middle & top level flyers in hub & 'dominant airline' cities. There are just so many more people fighting for those seats.

It's the reason I stopped flying US out of BWI & PHL, and UA out of PDX.

Sometimes I swear all 30,000 are at ORD simultaneously.

I wouldn't be surprised if UA is a little top heavy, i.e., more 1K's than other carriers b/c of: 1) The ability to get status miles on *A carriers; 2) UA's extensive Asia system means more segment light but mile rich flights. It's relatively easy for a significant subset of MP members to get 1K based on their travel patterns internationally. For instance, my guess is that there are proportionally many fewer US Chairman's Preferred members, just because it's so hard to get 100,000 miles/100 segments with US - you have to really be doing a lot of heavy duty domestic travel to get there.

As a heavy international (115k miles, 63 segments in '99 - bunch of *A legs) 1K, I have nothing but respect for the true 1K's and US guys who are getting their card doing CLT-PIT-ROC or the shuttle (etc.) a couple times a week. That's real work.

Greg

[This message has been edited by greg99 (edited 12-02-1999).]

Well thank you very much -- I qualified for Chairman's Preferred the hard way -- 100 segments. I will end the year with 130 segments, mostly (90%+) on 60-300 mile flights.

Of course till this year I would not have even made it since they changed the program to include segments. I know that change probably opened the floodgates for CP since there are plenty of people who take the shuttle each week who would know be barely Chairman's, who before were only barely Preferred Plus.

That said, I've had nearly 100% success rate on upgrading myself and my wife when she travels with me (she just turned Preferred herself) and all my flights are going in and out of PIT. Only one flight HPN-PIT did I not get the upgrade; but I got the whole row six in coach to myself http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

>>The one thing that is weird, Airlines penalize the last minute buyer. The elites who pay the most.

Not all airlines. CO, NW, and HP hold back FC seating until the day of departure for full fare elites. You get the upgrade when you ticket, and it is complimentary (no coupons, certificates, or stickers).

I believe TW and US have similar policies. On US, as a non-elite I have been able to get FC seating when available on a full fare.

There was an interesting thread a few months ago (which I can't find, maybe someone could provide a URL) on whether buying tickets full fare should "count" in earning elite status vs. just miles flown. As far as I know, TW and now AA are the only airlines that take the amount you pay into account for earning status.

[This message has been edited by dgolds (edited 12-02-1999).]

Socalterp, there is a statistic from Randy Petersen in the following thread that you might find interesting:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/000954.html

dgolds:

An ongoing thread somewhere else in FlyerTalk (maybe in the AA area?) discusses priority for upgrades for individuals in similar elite levels. For AA, when the upgrade window of opportunity opens (72 hours prior to departure for Platinum) priority for upgrades for two individual in the same elite level (ie both Platinum) goes to the person who is paying the full fare ticket.

I think this only helps the full fare passenger who has booked their ticket prior to the start of 72 hour Platinum upgrade period. If you are a full fare Platinum who is making a last minute flight (well after the window of opportunity has opened), all the upgrades may have already gone to the discount fare paying Platinum who booked their ticket weeks in advance (to get the cheepo fare). I do not believe (know) if AA holds upgrade seats for the last minute full fare Elite flyer? Thoughts anyone?

Also, a separate AA thread discusses AAdvantage change for '00 to allow an individual to earn AA's top tier Executive Platinum status by flying 100K miles. Previously, the only way to attain EP status was to earn 100K points (which are earned depending on how much your ticket cost). Since I fly generally el-cheepo fares I previously never had a chance for EP. Now, I may make EP in '00 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 12-02-1999).]

dgold writes: Thank God there aren't more. And this touches on a pet peeve of mine. Some airlines have been testing the water in the loyalty=revenue game for some time, which I find ridiculous, and avoid those airlines like the plague.

Who knows why someone buys a full-fare ticket? Last minute, probably. But who/what made the decision of which airline? The company? A travel agent? The route? The time of day? Airport monopoly? Who knows? Should this person be rewarded with elite status or other perks that compete with other elite members, just because of the fare paid? IMHO...NO! The only thing we know for sure is that if they don't have elite status (earned the hard way), they don't fly the airline very much!

The "founders" of Frequent Flyer Programs got it right to begin with...Miles and/or Segments=Loyalty=Status. Loyalty is when you go out of your way to fly your preferred airline. Loyalty is when you give them the business even if the routing, time, or even price is not the best. Loyalty is when you call them FIRST and fly them MOST, no matter if you are flying on a high priced ticket or a low promotional fare. The airlines set the fares, not us.

Loyalty=Status should not be given because of the luck of the draw of what fare was paid. If the airlines want to give high revenue passengers some extra perks, that's fine and I think they should. Build 'em a lounge. Pay for a limo to the airport. Give 'em their own check-in line. But to cop out and slap their most truly loyal flyers in the face by giving elite status to someone who only flies that airline occasionally on high priced tickets, is unacceptable IMHO. It's a sell out, literally.

Revenue and Loyalty reward programs should be two separate things and there should be no competition between them. Marketing departments created Frequent Flyer Programs to attract and reward the Frequent Flyer! Marketing departments are also responsible for courting infrequent but potentially high revenue passengers. And they should create a separate program for them, if they feel it is in their best interests. But not a program that hurts another.

Why don't they? Lack of imagination or just being plain cheap. " Why spend money on a separate lounge or airport limo when we can just toss 'em a few of the same perks we already give our elite flyers. No one will notice. No one will complain. And it won't cost us another dime over what we already give our elite flyers. Just robbing an elite benefit from a frequent flyer over here, to give to this high-rev person over there."

But it costs us, the truly Loyal and Frequent Flyer, plenty. IMHO.

Never lose sight of the fact that the AIRLINES set the fares we pay. Your obligation to remain elite is simply to fly your preferred airline as often as possible. If you're an elite, and you know your airline in effect is says to infrequent flyers "look, we've got this seat at this price. But if you pay this higher price for the exact same seat on the exact same flight, we'll give you elite status in our Frequent Flyer program"...take a walk! You wouldn't want to be a member of that kind of program anyway! You've earned your status the hard way...by flying long and hard miles and segments.

Hey, there are other issues that concern me, such as the selling of miles to infrequent or non-flyers in the form of merchandise, mortgage, credit card, etc, etc. But most of that doesn't bother me as long as the airlines allocate additional award seats to make up for the flood of miles out there (especially now that most miles don't expire). But elite status, IMHO, should be sacred ground. Not for sale at any price. Period.

If you've earned your elite status by flying miles and/or segments, you'll probably agree with the above. If you have not, and you have "bought" your elite status because of a few high revenue flights or by buying the American Express Black Card, you'll probably disagree. Regardless, sorry for ranting.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 12-02-1999).]

PremEx, I am in complete agreement.

One of the reasons I'm glad I'm with UA is because of this. They tend not to sell out their elite ranks, at least not as much as some. And so far, everything I've heard and seen indicates that 1K is truly "sacred ground" as you put it... no comps, no purchasing, no freebies. And that's the way it needs to stay. You fly 100,000 miles or 100 segments, and you get it. If you paid $10,000 on cheap coach tix, fine. If you paid $100,000 on first class tix, same status. The program gives me an incentive to choose them over another airline, even if I have to pay a little more. It should not be an incentive for me to pay more than I should otherwise on the same airline! The program is about loyalty, not revenue. Programs that sell their elite ranks or makeit easier for high fares to make elite ranks, frankly, IMHO, are selling out their true loyal customers.

I respectfully disagree with Premex. I would hope that USAirways somedays considers instituting pay-per-play elite levels. Why? I spent an average of $1.00+ per mile for my ticket. I think I am more important to the airline to USAirways than another Chairman's Preferred who pais $.10 cents a mile .. (I might become one of the cheapos myself next year as I shift my travel to leisure trips). I would expect to be treated better now as I am one of the people who keep the airline afloat than later when I fly 2000 miles for 100 bucks.

In fact, every letter I've written USAirways starts ... I've flown over 100 flights this year and spent over $30,000 this year on your airline.... I think it makes a difference in their eye vs I've flown over 100 flights this year and spent over $5,000 this year on your airline....

Just IMHO.



[This message has been edited by dg1 (edited 12-02-1999).]

I find myself somewhere in the middle here having the somewhat heretical thought that both types of FF's are important albeit possibly for different reasons.

BTW- TWA and AA are somewhat different IMHO, since with TWA you can get where you're going different ways and paying higher prices is an incentive, yet AA precludes you from attaining otherwise higher status (Ex Plat) without buying the higher Y fares or F class tickets. If I'm wrong here, please kindly correct me. Thanks.

OK, I found the old thread. It's http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001492.html

I respectfully disagree with the majority on this one. I stated my points in the earlier thread, so I have nothing left to say here. I kind of feel like we beat the horse to death in July.

dg1, your argument rather assumes elites are flying on cheapie tickets. I think that the airline's statistics say just the opposite. And flying 100+ segments a year you certainly aren't in the "occasional" catagory I'm talking about. My point is that these programs are Frequent Flyer Loyalty programs.

The airlines have seats to fill. They know that some will be filled at $1.00 a mile, but that won't fill 'em all. They created these loyalty programs to attract the frequent flyer of any fare, not just the occasional high revenue flyer. The airlines are not just concerned with the $$ per mile. They are aldo concerned with how much business (high or low fare) Mr. Love brings to them in a year. Every flight good 'ole Mr. Love makes with United is revenue that isn't going to another airline. And that's the prize the airlines should stay focused on, and so far most have been smart enough to do so.

Anyway, I agree with you that you deserve something special and extra for your Full Fare tickets. My point is that it should be something different. Not something that takes away or dilutes the benefits their existing best customers.

Simply, I believe elite status in the Frequent Flyer programs should be given only to Frequent Flyers (as the programs were created and most still operate, thankfully). I'm saying (to the airlines) don't dilute my elite Frequent Flyer perks by creating a sub class not for loyalty, but for the occasional pricy ride. And I say "occasional" because if they weren't, then they would already be elite.