Number of elites
 

I'm sure that airlines must closely guard their FF numbers, but does anyone have an idea about the number of elite members on various airlines? This would encompass 1st-tier, Middle-tier and platinum, which seems to be what most programs have these days. I'm constantly amazed by the number of UA, AA, & US mid-level and above elites who struggle to get upgrades. I know that some of the cabins can be small, but I thought most airlines were expanding their F/C.

I am sure there are more than you think. I am always battling for upgrades. The one thing that is werid, Airlines penalize the last minute buyer. The elites who pay the most.

For example, there are so many elites who fly week after week the same destination (as I do), but many fly on last minute notice and their upgrades are harder to get.

Oh well... sorry about the tangent.

Its been previously said on this board that there is approximately 30,000 United 100K flyers. Since UA is the largest US carrier, I would imagine that other programs would have a proportional amount based upon the number of FF members & pax flown?

'terp...you also need to factor in the large concentration of middle & top level flyers in hub & 'dominant airline' cities. There are just so many more people fighting for those seats.

It's the reason I stopped flying US out of BWI & PHL, and UA out of PDX.

Sometimes I swear all 30,000 are at ORD simultaneously.

I wouldn't be surprised if UA is a little top heavy, i.e., more 1K's than other carriers b/c of: 1) The ability to get status miles on *A carriers; 2) UA's extensive Asia system means more segment light but mile rich flights. It's relatively easy for a significant subset of MP members to get 1K based on their travel patterns internationally. For instance, my guess is that there are proportionally many fewer US Chairman's Preferred members, just because it's so hard to get 100,000 miles/100 segments with US - you have to really be doing a lot of heavy duty domestic travel to get there.

As a heavy international (115k miles, 63 segments in '99 - bunch of *A legs) 1K, I have nothing but respect for the true 1K's and US guys who are getting their card doing CLT-PIT-ROC or the shuttle (etc.) a couple times a week. That's real work.

Greg

[This message has been edited by greg99 (edited 12-02-1999).]

Well thank you very much -- I qualified for Chairman's Preferred the hard way -- 100 segments. I will end the year with 130 segments, mostly (90%+) on 60-300 mile flights.

Of course till this year I would not have even made it since they changed the program to include segments. I know that change probably opened the floodgates for CP since there are plenty of people who take the shuttle each week who would know be barely Chairman's, who before were only barely Preferred Plus.

That said, I've had nearly 100% success rate on upgrading myself and my wife when she travels with me (she just turned Preferred herself) and all my flights are going in and out of PIT. Only one flight HPN-PIT did I not get the upgrade; but I got the whole row six in coach to myself http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

>>The one thing that is weird, Airlines penalize the last minute buyer. The elites who pay the most.

Not all airlines. CO, NW, and HP hold back FC seating until the day of departure for full fare elites. You get the upgrade when you ticket, and it is complimentary (no coupons, certificates, or stickers).

I believe TW and US have similar policies. On US, as a non-elite I have been able to get FC seating when available on a full fare.

There was an interesting thread a few months ago (which I can't find, maybe someone could provide a URL) on whether buying tickets full fare should "count" in earning elite status vs. just miles flown. As far as I know, TW and now AA are the only airlines that take the amount you pay into account for earning status.

[This message has been edited by dgolds (edited 12-02-1999).]

Socalterp, there is a statistic from Randy Petersen in the following thread that you might find interesting:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/000954.html

dgolds:

An ongoing thread somewhere else in FlyerTalk (maybe in the AA area?) discusses priority for upgrades for individuals in similar elite levels. For AA, when the upgrade window of opportunity opens (72 hours prior to departure for Platinum) priority for upgrades for two individual in the same elite level (ie both Platinum) goes to the person who is paying the full fare ticket.

I think this only helps the full fare passenger who has booked their ticket prior to the start of 72 hour Platinum upgrade period. If you are a full fare Platinum who is making a last minute flight (well after the window of opportunity has opened), all the upgrades may have already gone to the discount fare paying Platinum who booked their ticket weeks in advance (to get the cheepo fare). I do not believe (know) if AA holds upgrade seats for the last minute full fare Elite flyer? Thoughts anyone?

Also, a separate AA thread discusses AAdvantage change for '00 to allow an individual to earn AA's top tier Executive Platinum status by flying 100K miles. Previously, the only way to attain EP status was to earn 100K points (which are earned depending on how much your ticket cost). Since I fly generally el-cheepo fares I previously never had a chance for EP. Now, I may make EP in '00 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 12-02-1999).]

dgold writes: Thank God there aren't more. And this touches on a pet peeve of mine. Some airlines have been testing the water in the loyalty=revenue game for some time, which I find ridiculous, and avoid those airlines like the plague.

Who knows why someone buys a full-fare ticket? Last minute, probably. But who/what made the decision of which airline? The company? A travel agent? The route? The time of day? Airport monopoly? Who knows? Should this person be rewarded with elite status or other perks that compete with other elite members, just because of the fare paid? IMHO...NO! The only thing we know for sure is that if they don't have elite status (earned the hard way), they don't fly the airline very much!

The "founders" of Frequent Flyer Programs got it right to begin with...Miles and/or Segments=Loyalty=Status. Loyalty is when you go out of your way to fly your preferred airline. Loyalty is when you give them the business even if the routing, time, or even price is not the best. Loyalty is when you call them FIRST and fly them MOST, no matter if you are flying on a high priced ticket or a low promotional fare. The airlines set the fares, not us.

Loyalty=Status should not be given because of the luck of the draw of what fare was paid. If the airlines want to give high revenue passengers some extra perks, that's fine and I think they should. Build 'em a lounge. Pay for a limo to the airport. Give 'em their own check-in line. But to cop out and slap their most truly loyal flyers in the face by giving elite status to someone who only flies that airline occasionally on high priced tickets, is unacceptable IMHO. It's a sell out, literally.

Revenue and Loyalty reward programs should be two separate things and there should be no competition between them. Marketing departments created Frequent Flyer Programs to attract and reward the Frequent Flyer! Marketing departments are also responsible for courting infrequent but potentially high revenue passengers. And they should create a separate program for them, if they feel it is in their best interests. But not a program that hurts another.

Why don't they? Lack of imagination or just being plain cheap. " Why spend money on a separate lounge or airport limo when we can just toss 'em a few of the same perks we already give our elite flyers. No one will notice. No one will complain. And it won't cost us another dime over what we already give our elite flyers. Just robbing an elite benefit from a frequent flyer over here, to give to this high-rev person over there."

But it costs us, the truly Loyal and Frequent Flyer, plenty. IMHO.

Never lose sight of the fact that the AIRLINES set the fares we pay. Your obligation to remain elite is simply to fly your preferred airline as often as possible. If you're an elite, and you know your airline in effect is says to infrequent flyers "look, we've got this seat at this price. But if you pay this higher price for the exact same seat on the exact same flight, we'll give you elite status in our Frequent Flyer program"...take a walk! You wouldn't want to be a member of that kind of program anyway! You've earned your status the hard way...by flying long and hard miles and segments.

Hey, there are other issues that concern me, such as the selling of miles to infrequent or non-flyers in the form of merchandise, mortgage, credit card, etc, etc. But most of that doesn't bother me as long as the airlines allocate additional award seats to make up for the flood of miles out there (especially now that most miles don't expire). But elite status, IMHO, should be sacred ground. Not for sale at any price. Period.

If you've earned your elite status by flying miles and/or segments, you'll probably agree with the above. If you have not, and you have "bought" your elite status because of a few high revenue flights or by buying the American Express Black Card, you'll probably disagree. Regardless, sorry for ranting.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 12-02-1999).]

PremEx, I am in complete agreement.

One of the reasons I'm glad I'm with UA is because of this. They tend not to sell out their elite ranks, at least not as much as some. And so far, everything I've heard and seen indicates that 1K is truly "sacred ground" as you put it... no comps, no purchasing, no freebies. And that's the way it needs to stay. You fly 100,000 miles or 100 segments, and you get it. If you paid $10,000 on cheap coach tix, fine. If you paid $100,000 on first class tix, same status. The program gives me an incentive to choose them over another airline, even if I have to pay a little more. It should not be an incentive for me to pay more than I should otherwise on the same airline! The program is about loyalty, not revenue. Programs that sell their elite ranks or makeit easier for high fares to make elite ranks, frankly, IMHO, are selling out their true loyal customers.

I respectfully disagree with Premex. I would hope that USAirways somedays considers instituting pay-per-play elite levels. Why? I spent an average of $1.00+ per mile for my ticket. I think I am more important to the airline to USAirways than another Chairman's Preferred who pais $.10 cents a mile .. (I might become one of the cheapos myself next year as I shift my travel to leisure trips). I would expect to be treated better now as I am one of the people who keep the airline afloat than later when I fly 2000 miles for 100 bucks.

In fact, every letter I've written USAirways starts ... I've flown over 100 flights this year and spent over $30,000 this year on your airline.... I think it makes a difference in their eye vs I've flown over 100 flights this year and spent over $5,000 this year on your airline....

Just IMHO.



[This message has been edited by dg1 (edited 12-02-1999).]

I find myself somewhere in the middle here having the somewhat heretical thought that both types of FF's are important albeit possibly for different reasons.

BTW- TWA and AA are somewhat different IMHO, since with TWA you can get where you're going different ways and paying higher prices is an incentive, yet AA precludes you from attaining otherwise higher status (Ex Plat) without buying the higher Y fares or F class tickets. If I'm wrong here, please kindly correct me. Thanks.

OK, I found the old thread. It's http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001492.html

I respectfully disagree with the majority on this one. I stated my points in the earlier thread, so I have nothing left to say here. I kind of feel like we beat the horse to death in July.

dg1, your argument rather assumes elites are flying on cheapie tickets. I think that the airline's statistics say just the opposite. And flying 100+ segments a year you certainly aren't in the "occasional" catagory I'm talking about. My point is that these programs are Frequent Flyer Loyalty programs.

The airlines have seats to fill. They know that some will be filled at $1.00 a mile, but that won't fill 'em all. They created these loyalty programs to attract the frequent flyer of any fare, not just the occasional high revenue flyer. The airlines are not just concerned with the $$ per mile. They are aldo concerned with how much business (high or low fare) Mr. Love brings to them in a year. Every flight good 'ole Mr. Love makes with United is revenue that isn't going to another airline. And that's the prize the airlines should stay focused on, and so far most have been smart enough to do so.

Anyway, I agree with you that you deserve something special and extra for your Full Fare tickets. My point is that it should be something different. Not something that takes away or dilutes the benefits their existing best customers.

Simply, I believe elite status in the Frequent Flyer programs should be given only to Frequent Flyers (as the programs were created and most still operate, thankfully). I'm saying (to the airlines) don't dilute my elite Frequent Flyer perks by creating a sub class not for loyalty, but for the occasional pricy ride. And I say "occasional" because if they weren't, then they would already be elite.

Excellent Point PremEx.

One thing I want to stress is that I agree that airlines get $$ for its elites. Although I pull the $168 rt sometimes, I do pull the $1400 Rt or $1800 RT. So there is a balance there. Also the occasional One way fares. I have also purchased 1st class on a full flight for $150 more or $300 more than another carrier. They do get my money as I am sure other elites do the same thing.

But I agree, the last minute tickets at $1500 should get a priority for the First class u/G vs the other 1K with a $340 ticket. I see it as fair. When I pay an "el cheapo" fare and get to ride in the front i am on cloud nine.. if I am in the back in the Exit Row.. I am happy http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Fair is fine... but I agree they should not dilute the ranks more than is necessary to get additional revenue for the airline. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't know about other airlines, but CP always leave quite a bit of premium seats until last minute. If you do happen to buy a last minute full fare ticket, you will immediately jump to the top of the upgrade list within your level of elites. If you happen to be the top tier such as 1K or Exec. Plat, you will almost be guarantee a upgrade seat at the gate if there are any F or J seats left with your high tier and full fare ticket. No airlines is going to give away all their F or J seats for upgrade at the 72 hrs or 100 hrs mark, they ALWAYS leave some until the check in cutoff point.

Regards,
Empress

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited 12-02-1999).]

Right on, Premex! And I also want to congratulate you to your decision to drop Delta because they start selling their elite levels (AX black).

OK, Premex, I agree that if there was other ways of rewarding people who pay full fare, etc, that would work too. That happens periodically in those full fare double mile bonuses. I've earned about 20k extra miles this way by spending about three-four times as much as the average RT, so around $8000 more. Not a good deal IMHO. Most of these times I flew coach w/o any or slim chance to get into first.

I do think that a guy paying one full fare round trip should not get elite, or anything that low. But I am/would be somewhat upset if I flew 40 full fare short-hop non-stop roundtrips, let's say at about $600 a pop, spending $24,000 and getting on USAirways Preferred Plus. On the other hand, someone else flew the same 40 round-trips at an average discount fare of $200, plus five more. This person would be Chairman's Preferred after spending $1000 on the airline.

Now, if there was some other concrete benefit offered, I think everyone could be happy. But that's not the case. Given that, I think consideration should be given for the person who spent 24 times as much and only flew a handful of trips less.

My only point is that some consideration should be given to fare paid, but I think the ideal system should combine it with actual flight miles/segments, so if a high paying business passenger is close -- 10%? 15%? -- to an elite level they get bumped up.

I haven't reviewed TWA's or AA's elite for money programs, but if they are sufficiently high then that's fair too, but not as much as a combined system. In the end, it's probably just too complicated.

I paid $2200 R/T once to fly to Los Angeles coach. No upgrades possible even though first class was wide open. That just sucked, considering a few months down the road I flew the same route for $300 R/T and sat up front.

I care most about segment qualification personally; till this year USAirways did not even offer that. They changed it just in time for me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif since I would not have made the top tier otherwise.

BTW, I am using the example of the all full-fare traveller vs the all discounted fare traveller as an extreme example. Reality is obviously a mix. This year I flew 90% of my flights full fare. Next year I expect maybe about 40%.


[This message has been edited by dg1 (edited 12-02-1999).]

The airlines' marketing departments may say that frequent flier programs are designed to reward the loyalty of their customers, but the airline's financial results (which for those airlines which are publicly held American corporations is their highest fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders) are more closely aligned to the incremental revenue and profits they get from a customer's business than the customer's loyalty per se.

Consider for example, which of these two fliers should an airline "court" by structuring their FFP to give better benefits (but keeping in mind that the two different fliers may value different benefits differentially). Flier A is 100% loyal to the airline, never flies any other airline unless there is a gun pointed at his head, and spends $10,000 this year flying. Flier B is terribly disloyal, flies whichever airline is the most convenient for his schedule that week, sends a mere 25% of his business to said airline, but nevertheless spends $25,000 a year with them. (For purposes of this discussion, assume both Flyer A and Flyer B spend half their money on discount coach tickets and half on full-fare coach tickets.)

Who's more loyal? (Easy answer.) Who contributed more to the airline's bottom line this year. (Fairly easy answer.) Who's a more valuable customer for the airline to keep for the long-term? (Somewhat harder answer, I think.)

I think it was in a previous thread that somebody threw up their hands and said that it was clear there were two camps of posters, one for the airlines, one for the fliers. I don't think it's that simple. I may come off in this posting sounding like I'm in the camp for the airlines, but I'm of course in the camp of those looking out for their own best interests. But in the pursuit of my own best interests, it is to my advantage to better understand the motivations of the airlines. Not because I have to consider them an enemy (and therefore study them the better to defeat them in battle), but because if I better understand their motivations, I can better figure out how to advance my own interests in a way that least conflicts against their interests and therefore meets the least resistance from them.

Maybe that's getting too philosophical. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by pshuang (edited 12-03-1999).]

My perspective: I NEVER fly full fare coach, much less full fare Business or First (except in Asia, where business class tix are under $400). Yet I was personally responsible for about $35,000 in revenue for UA this year.

My opinion: The airlines DO reward folks who buy expensive tickets. Whether its double or triple mile offers on Y tickets, priority in upgrading or other perks, those folks are rewarded for their (in my opinion) reckless coach spending. And if they are buying Business or coach tickets, well then they're ALREADY flying Business or first, aren't they?

But if UA were to change their policy to what AA and BA apparently do, I would walk, and take my $35,000 or so a year (every year) to someone who doesn't do that.

Now you financial wizzes tell which you would rather have: A loyal customer who you can pretty much count on for $35,000 a year -- year after year after year no matter how his travels change because loyalty, not convenience is his motivating factor? Or a customer who spends $60,000 one year, then $5,000 the next because their destinations change and convenience is more important than price?

I dunno about YOUR industry, but everywhere I have worked, the best kind of revenue is recurring revenue http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I really think UA has it right: reward LOYALTY. Thank the big spenders with perks and bonuses, but not necessarily at the expense of the loyal...

And if it ain't broke.....

[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 12-03-1999).]

I agree with the loyalty side. However, there is merit to the $$ paid argument which I think all agree on to some extent. The problem with the $$ paid argument is that this person may not be very loyal and the airlines want to reward loyalty.

Now having said that perhaps some sort of reward similar to what the Vegas casino/hotels do for their big spenders. This might be identifying people who spend a lot of money on air travel with any airline. Then an airline might provide special invitations with perks (not elite status)to entice those people to spend their money on that airline. Just a quick thought off the top of my head.

Very good and reasonable discussion. Is it helpful to note that the programs are designed to benefit the airlines first and foremost and the members secondarily? PremEx makes a very strong case, endorsed by others like Jeff, one that is very difficult to refute if the premise set forth above is correct. This vote is with PremEx.

In my opinion, the airlines have to reward both those who spend a lot of money, at high prices, and those who will fly the same airline, "unless a gun is put to their head". I am one of these. I fly CO 95% on pleasure, yet always manage to get to the highest status (Platinum), despite the fact, that by flying the specials, I NEVER spend more that $3,000-$3,500 per year. Am I more valuable than someone who spends $35,000 a year, or who spends $1,600 like my wife did yesterday to fly EWR-SAT on business? Probably not, but I am a good, loyal customer who can be counted on to fill the empty seats 10-20 times a year, both domestically and internationally, year after year. This is loyalty and should be rewarded. Since the airlines set the rules and say that I should be Platinum if I fly 75,000 miles, I am simply playing by their rules and receivng the rewards they have determined to be appropriate.
I do think, that there should be something, over and above regualar FF benefits that only someone spending over say $35-50,000 per year should receive. Perhaps this could be international perks, or whatever creative ideas a marketing department can develop.
The airlines need to satisify both camps since its the $35,000 flyer that brings in the most revenue, but the loyal FFers like me that fill the seats.

Wait just a gosh darn second here! I really thought that $35,000 for 104,000 miles was being thrifty as heck! Now you're telling me that people make elite on $3,000 per year. Geez, maybe I AM flying the wrong airline.....

Vulcan...if you're making Platinum every year for $3-4K in tickets, you should hold a seminar for all of us.

We must be doing something wrong. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Welcome to the world of:

cheap TA coach/economy rt travel - $300 ticket= 10k miles to/from NYC-Europe

cheap TP coach/economy rt travel - $750 ticket= nearly 20k miles to/from NYC-Asia

vs.

cheap TC travel in rt coach/economy - $250 ticket = only 5k miles to/from NYC-CAL

Just do the math! Platinum is accessible for very little if you truly want it!

kokoNUTZ is the name you chose..., but seriously, if you work the e-fares nowadays, status does come failry cheaply. take that $35K and you can probably get status on EVERY us based airline if you like.

I take offense at full fare coach being called reckless spending. In a fortress hub, I am only offered full fare coach fares if I don't stay over a Saturday night. Doesn't matter if it's 1 hour, 1 week or 1 year in advance. There is no choice here unless you want to lose a good portion of your weekend for your job's benefit. I like my job but not that much.

On top of that, on a few full fare coach tickets I've changed my flights a dozen times making them worth it in the saved change fees, and it's nice to be able to refund them easily (I've done that about a dozen times too).

So for some people in some places full fare coach is the only viable option. Just my $.02

dg1, I agree. I do a) last minute travel, b) change my itinerary constantly c) don't know where I'll be tmrw, and d) want the highest status which I get when I spend money on full coach fares. I never stay Sat night, and don't want to screw with restricted fares. I've been there, done that, and find it a real drag.

I believe that all things being equal I should have priority if I am Platinum and have spent $2K for a coach r/t ticket vs someone who has spent $300, even if he/she is Platinum also. And I think this just makes business sense.

We have been buying coast-to-coast tickets (over 5,000 miles) for $240. That's first level elite for $1,200. It is also PremEx for $2,400.

But, of course, PremEx is EXACTLY right. Once you are locked into a loyatly program, you'll pay more for a ticket rather than blow off the miles.

I do exactly as DOC says. I will go to Europe 4-5 time in Jan/feb when the fares are about $300 RT. I will fly on NW(EWR-MSP-CDG & back, for example. Each RT is about 9,000 miles =~$1,500 for 45,000 miles. Throw in 1 Rt to BKK (20,000 miles) for ~$750 and you are at 65,000 miles for ~$2,500. A few ewr-iah-sea Rts on CO (6,600 miles) at $200 each and $3,500 for 75,000 miles is very doable if you work at it. Note I do have a full time job, so a lot of this is over weekends and I do spend at least 2 nights in Europe on a European Trip),. I find most of my specials thru the www.bestfares.com website that I visit 2-3 times a day. As Platinum ELite, those 75,000 status mile turn into ~ 170,000 miles for awards in my account. AT 2 cents a mile it equals $3,400 so I'm even, at worst. But I tend to spend the miles on things like F/C international trips, so I figure I get a lot more than 2 cents/mile. My warped mind tells me that the airlines are now paying me to fly. What a game!!!
Note that I also agree that someone paying full fare should have priority over a Platinum elite for any seats still available
when they book.
Finally, I think I have an advantage over most FFers by being CO Platinum and can access both NW and America West and get status miles on CO for flying them . This gives me a lot more options for cheap trips
than most programs.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 12-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 12-03-1999).]

Whoa! There are people out there who think that the full-fare payers are getting a "good deal" by earning elite status through fares paid???!!! I'd suggest it's those low-fare payers who are getting the "good deal" of elite status.

I'm on the opposite side of this situation and think there are entirely too many of you elites muscling in on my full-fare first class travel.

I am also stuck in a fortress hub with few convenient choices and very high fares. Also, my company's policy is first class for flights over 2 hours (thank you very much). A recent flurry of business activity for me in the Pacific Northwest had me flying back and forth quite a bit. My normal airline's schedule wasn't terribly convenient at times and so I was forced to connect through Denver on United. I have absolutely no status with United and think I had an account balance of 25 miles or something like that.

I'm not so sure I like sharing what my company paid for with all the elites. First, on check-in I have to wait in the "regular" first class line with the lower form of United elite frequent flyer (of which there are many). While there is a nice separate line for the fewer 1k demi-gods, flying on $29 efares no doubt, who get preferential treatment at the counter.

Then, when they go to board the plane, I'm involved with the stampede at the door as first class, 1k, premex, platinum, tutoniam, magnificum, dogs, cats, etc are "invited to pre-board". Well, on some of these west-coast routes that means pretty much 75% of the aircraft. Suddenly I'm jockeying to put my bag somewhere while the 80 premex on the flight demand their god-given right to overhead space. One flight from Portland was particularly amazing.

Then I have to share the first-class cabin with many people who hadn't paid the first class fare for that route (though I'm sure the years pain and suffering back in economy are payment-in-kind). Perhaps I'm not getting the meal I want, or the level of service I'd like because first-class is packed.

To those of you wishing to separate the concepts of "loyalty" and money paid, I'd suggest that there is no difference and if you think there is then you're deluding yourselves. Certainly the airlines aren't interested in creating "loyalty", they're interested in creating assured revenue streams, ie. "money". If they call them "loyalty programs" or frequent-flyer programs, then that's just good marketing.

It seems that the notion of a first-class upgrade benefit has morphed into a "right".

Also, at times, I read on these boards the interesting discussions about non-revs and employees being seated in first-class and potential displacements and lack of upgrades as a result. The American boards bubble with sightings of "employees walking to the back". Their proper place no doubt according to some. Why shouldn't I, as a full-fare first class flyer expect the same for all the non-first-class payers?

Don't get me wrong, I hold elite status on my hometown, hub airline and when I travel personally on a discounted fare I sure enjoy checking-in at the 1st class desk and the potential for an upgrade. But all this loyalty=miles/segements and not money spent smacks of wanting your cake and eating it too. Consider yourselves lucky, because most businesses consider their best customers the ones who spend "the most" money, not who visits the store the most or orders the most. It just so happens that generally there is a high degree of correlation between those two groups.

It's not the high fare payers who are "getting a good deal" with elite status. That's normal business practice. It's the low-fare payers who are getting the good deal by being able to achieve valuable customer status just because they're persistant.

tfjim says: "But all this loyalty=miles/segements and not money spent smacks of wanting your cake and eating it too."

And the problem with that would be???? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 12-05-1999).]

tfjim, I was going to post a long response to your message, but let me just capsulize it...

Your employer pays for First Class for flights over 2 hours...and all you've done is complain about it. You might be in the top 5% of flyers that have that luxury.

You may need to do one of 2 things...either learn to 'massage' the system (that's what we do here), or find a job with less travel.

If you think it gets a whole lot better that what you've experienced, it doesn't. Those of us who travel as much or more than you, know what to expect & how to play the game.

Sorry for the rant... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I think boarding should be in the order:

People paying first class
Elite members upgraded to first class
Others upgraded to first class
Elite members in coach
Full fare coach
By rows

But that ain't gonna happen http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

tfjim, well said!

You are right: loyalty means money, for the airlines it's a consistent revenue stream. "Loyalty" is a euphemism. It means something tangible when we take an inconvenient flight, or a connection when there is a direct flight available on another (non-elite) airline. They have locked us in, they are masters at it!

It might be easy to say for those people who the company allows them to buy First/Business class ticket. I only buy J class ticket for overseas travel. Otherwise, for domestic I only purchase lowest fare. I often stay over the weekend to get a lower fare. Some of you might argue full fare will justify change fee, however, change fee are only $100 for domestic travel. However, for those who just don't have the time to stay over weekend, then you've got no choice.

We've earned the upgrades by earning the elite status. That elite status came from many trip in coach. By buying a full fare, you've already been rewarded with benefits such as being able to change your ticket without penalties, fully refundable. That's the reason you buy full fare. Those are already big benefits over discounted tickets. Other than that, it's just a ticket for a seat just like the discounted tickets. Airlines sell discounted tickets to award those who are willing to stay over the weekend. FF programs are designed those to who travel with them frequently not to those who give them the most revenue. Note that the airline doesn't say you'll make PLATINUM/1K by giving them $XXX per year?? Although they are willing to place you higher on the list within the same group of elites if you are paying higher fare such as what AA is doing.

For some people like tfjim, to complain like these, you are being very selfish. Why not just suggest the airline block off the whole F class for full fare people? Then the airline will be out of business if not for all those frequent flyers. I personally value upgrades as the most important aspect of my travel. The airline gives out those incentives to keep you flying with them.

Regards,
Empress

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited 12-05-1999).]

FF programs are to some like crack and booze is to others: addictive and very difficult to drop. But very good marketing tool for the airlines, as confirmed by these forums and many others. Airline attitude: if it ain't broke, don't fix it, just squeeze a bit more from it as load factors permit. And really, nothing we say on these forums is going to make an iota of difference, other than provide some relief for writers; airlines are in fat city and happy as fat cats these days. For customers-members, it's all lagniappe, or, if one prefers a more theological base, grace, meaning unmerited goodness bestowed upon us. And we can always walk away from the programs if we really are unhappy with them.



PS: There was a time, before 1982, I think, when the F class cabin was filled with full fare F passengers. No sticker upgrades, no discount fare passengers, just passengers who paid for a F class ticket. That was nice, pleasant, cool.

This is a fascinating thread and ties in nicely with the quotes attributed to Randy Petersen in today's NYT regarding AMEX's new "black" card (ie the Centurion).

This card, for $1000/year, gives the holder intermediate elite status at four airlines. Petersen says "'Letting people buy their way into selective upgrades damages the relationship the airlines have with the true frequent fliers who flew their way there, the people who earned it the old-fashioned way,' he explained. 'It's like old money versus new.'"

I don't fly enough to qualify for the most elite levels on frequent flier programs and barely hang onto my AA Gold status every year.

And since AA cut my hub back a few years ago (BNA) and since SWA and Delta Express are becoming more and more important here, it's been getting harder and harder to even find a plane that has a FC section on it!

Because of these factors, I usually just pay real money for FC tickets - say on US Air for those trips to DC. Even on AA, if I absolutely want to be assured a FC seat, I buy it, rather than go through the extreme stress of trying to get an upgrade. AA always holds 2-4 seats out for "revenue" and doesn't release them until gate check-in.

Because there are two elite levels above me, my hit rate on AA for a FC upgrade is down to about 50%. On some runs, I always get it - on others I virtually never get it.

So, I just pay for it (or the client pays outright if it's a FC gig, or I pay the diff between full-fare coach and FC, which is usually not much at all).

Then, as a full-fare passenger, I think I should receive the best possible treatment, even though I may not be as "loyal" as someone who flies that airline much much more than I do.

But after reading the comments on this board, I have a lot more respect for frequent-fliers.


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"Living well is the best revenge"