Are bloggers ruining Flyertalk????
May 9, 2012 | 6:15 pm
#286
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ICT
Programs: AA ExP
Posts: 1,860
The perspective of whether kids need to fly or not doesn't seem to be relevant to the issue. The issue is saying one needs to know how to travel as a family as an excuse for blogging and spreading deals vs. I want to produce content in order to make $ to take my kids to disney. I guess one needs to appeal to their viewership, but I just don't see how the content really differs here vs a 'non-family-oriented' blog.
She does fill a bit of a niche on the domestic redemption side, however. The other bloggers are too focused on int'l C and F to be much help for domestic Y redemptions, which can be an excellent value even though they're scorned. It's not that those posts are only for families--I find them useful for personal travel as well. So I agree with your thesis, there shouldn't be a niche for family travel, but there is a small one in the domestic redemptions spot, due to other bloggers' focus.
May 9, 2012 | 6:17 pm
#287
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
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Posts: 27,232
I find blogs have one use, and that is to alert me to deals in forums I don't read. This is mainly for hotel chains - I never stay in Marriott's and don't read their forum, but if there was a really good promo I could move some stays. Blogs are the only way of tracking this, which is why Loyalty Traveller is one of only 3 I read. It also has huge amounts of original content and analysis.
May 9, 2012 | 6:20 pm
#288
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Upcountry Maui, HI
Posts: 13,722
Essentially: this thread is a debate over information arbitrage. It's not a new debate, nor is it one that's going to end. There will always be information arbitrage, and there will always be debate over when and where it's appropriate to share information that benefits one sector of a community in preference to others.
Consider Fuel Dumps and Mistake fares and hotel prices.
The only difference here is that now people are thinking that FT should have a monopoly on information because the bloggers are ruining FT. Frankly, if you spend any time in the United forums, you can see how untrue that is. FT has ruined FT all by itself.
-David
Last edited by LIH Prem; May 9, 2012 at 6:31 pm
May 9, 2012 | 6:22 pm
#289
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY, United States
Programs: AA, BA, UA, Spirit, Delta, PC Plat, SPG Gold, HHonors Diamond, Club Carlson Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,735
Exactly! If there is one internet Gorilla that has the potential to really kill deals, it's Flyertalk and not the bloggers. There is simply no comparison! But even Flyertalk does not kill deals. This is a fantasy, a myth that just refuses to die. When there are price mistakes or loopholes that those companies do not want, they kill them promptly. Yet, it took Chase over 6 months or even more to reduce the Sapphire bonus by 10,000 miles. Yeah, right!
The market for true credit card churners is tiny. Most people either don't have good credit to begin with, or they are always waiting to refinance, or they are too lazy/scared/skeptic/uncomfortable with the whole idea. Like I said in another thread, think about how many of your own friends and relatives have taken on this opportunity after you told them. In my case it's zero (well, with an exception of one who bugs me all the time to do his work for him
).
The market for true credit card churners is tiny. Most people either don't have good credit to begin with, or they are always waiting to refinance, or they are too lazy/scared/skeptic/uncomfortable with the whole idea. Like I said in another thread, think about how many of your own friends and relatives have taken on this opportunity after you told them. In my case it's zero (well, with an exception of one who bugs me all the time to do his work for him
). Upfront I will note:
1. My blog has been purchased by Internet Brands, owners of Flyertalk. As far as I know it is the only blog to date purchased from this niche. I have complete control over content of Frugal Travel Guy and am under no restrictions on the blog content. There are also no restrictions placed on me on what I contribute to Flyertalk.
2. I was interviewed by ABC Nightiline about our travel niche and exposed the niche to 4-5 million viewers in one evening.
3. I started with affiliate links in 2007 so am also probably the longest runner of affiliate links in the niche.
With that being said, I started my blog on October 27, 2007 after reading in USA Today about a lady that monetized her cooking blog with advertising. I immediately knew this was how I was going to spread all the information I had learned in my first six years on Flyertalk to more people than just my friends. My motives were dual. Spread the word and monetize if successful. It took readership to make it worthwhile. In the original days of the blog I earned 40 cents on a Restaurant.com $2 gift certificate. I kept writing and answering reader emails. It lasted that way until 2009 when I was finally approved for my first credit card links by Amex. Two full years of blogging and answering emails. In order to get a credit card company to approve your blog you needed readership and content worthy of their approval. Now, if you join BoardingArea.com you can use their collective readership to get approved right out of the gate. I know. I've have newbie bloggers tell me so.
In September of 2010 as a result of the financial crisis, credit card companies were starving for new applicants with good credit scores. They increased the earnings on credit card links significantly. (they are now moving back down somewhat). In the spring of 2011 I was approached by one independent blogger asking about affiliate links. He had a terrific blog with informative content and I told him where to get the info he needed. There were now two of us with affiliate links.
Not until the fall of 2011 did the other bloggers realize what was happening. The proliferation of blogs running affiliate links broke in one week with Lucky being first follwed by Gary. They were the only two that I knew of that had a readership sufficient to get approval to run affilate ads. That same week I heard the stories; "if I join BoardingArea I can get affiliate links" Now you know why there are so many bloggers running affiliate ads.
Have we ruined Flyertalk, heck no, we just condensed the information into short day to day pieces. Its not Flyertalk that created the frenzy of bloggers, its the company that got all the bloggers approved for running cc ads by joining BoardingArea. And as many of you have suggested, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And there is only so much news in a given day. You are now reading about 45 newpapers (or blogs) per day on the same topic.
Our collective readership is still less than that of Flyertalk. That information is publicly available. Blogs are monitored by the travel companies and so is Flyertalk. We have gone from a fraternity of 15,000 when I joined in July 2001 to a heathy community with 400,000 members and countless lurkers. It is our size that is killing deals quicker, not just the blogs. We have reached the critcal mass where everything is being watched. The companies that want our business now are the credit card companies. Look at page one of Milebuzz. It is credit cards, credit cards and more credit cards. That and the US Airways Grand Slam are the two biggies left.
Do blogers contribute to the space?
Absolutely. I'll point out my identifying my local branch of Suntrust Bank and there processing of 10 million Delta miles for my our readers. The sample reconsideration letters I've posted and the tricks I learned on churning in bulk from threads I read on Fatwallet looong before card churning became fashionable in this niche. I first churned cards for the interest arbitrage on the days of 0% balance transfers with no transfer fees. Many other bloggers have contributed information as well that was not gleaned from Flyertalk but was original thought and content.
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
My suggestion about bloggers remains the same as it always has: pick the few that provide you with content you want and don't read the rest. Why would you read or even bother to complain about the balance? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Just my personal opinion but I think what is hurting Flyertalk is the tone of some of the posts. My buddy Bikeguy illustrated it best to me with this quote from his Faces of Flyertalk post and I paraphrase:
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
1. My blog has been purchased by Internet Brands, owners of Flyertalk. As far as I know it is the only blog to date purchased from this niche. I have complete control over content of Frugal Travel Guy and am under no restrictions on the blog content. There are also no restrictions placed on me on what I contribute to Flyertalk.
2. I was interviewed by ABC Nightiline about our travel niche and exposed the niche to 4-5 million viewers in one evening.
3. I started with affiliate links in 2007 so am also probably the longest runner of affiliate links in the niche.
With that being said, I started my blog on October 27, 2007 after reading in USA Today about a lady that monetized her cooking blog with advertising. I immediately knew this was how I was going to spread all the information I had learned in my first six years on Flyertalk to more people than just my friends. My motives were dual. Spread the word and monetize if successful. It took readership to make it worthwhile. In the original days of the blog I earned 40 cents on a Restaurant.com $2 gift certificate. I kept writing and answering reader emails. It lasted that way until 2009 when I was finally approved for my first credit card links by Amex. Two full years of blogging and answering emails. In order to get a credit card company to approve your blog you needed readership and content worthy of their approval. Now, if you join BoardingArea.com you can use their collective readership to get approved right out of the gate. I know. I've have newbie bloggers tell me so.
In September of 2010 as a result of the financial crisis, credit card companies were starving for new applicants with good credit scores. They increased the earnings on credit card links significantly. (they are now moving back down somewhat). In the spring of 2011 I was approached by one independent blogger asking about affiliate links. He had a terrific blog with informative content and I told him where to get the info he needed. There were now two of us with affiliate links.
Not until the fall of 2011 did the other bloggers realize what was happening. The proliferation of blogs running affiliate links broke in one week with Lucky being first follwed by Gary. They were the only two that I knew of that had a readership sufficient to get approval to run affilate ads. That same week I heard the stories; "if I join BoardingArea I can get affiliate links" Now you know why there are so many bloggers running affiliate ads.
Have we ruined Flyertalk, heck no, we just condensed the information into short day to day pieces. Its not Flyertalk that created the frenzy of bloggers, its the company that got all the bloggers approved for running cc ads by joining BoardingArea. And as many of you have suggested, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And there is only so much news in a given day. You are now reading about 45 newpapers (or blogs) per day on the same topic.
Our collective readership is still less than that of Flyertalk. That information is publicly available. Blogs are monitored by the travel companies and so is Flyertalk. We have gone from a fraternity of 15,000 when I joined in July 2001 to a heathy community with 400,000 members and countless lurkers. It is our size that is killing deals quicker, not just the blogs. We have reached the critcal mass where everything is being watched. The companies that want our business now are the credit card companies. Look at page one of Milebuzz. It is credit cards, credit cards and more credit cards. That and the US Airways Grand Slam are the two biggies left.
Do blogers contribute to the space?
Absolutely. I'll point out my identifying my local branch of Suntrust Bank and there processing of 10 million Delta miles for my our readers. The sample reconsideration letters I've posted and the tricks I learned on churning in bulk from threads I read on Fatwallet looong before card churning became fashionable in this niche. I first churned cards for the interest arbitrage on the days of 0% balance transfers with no transfer fees. Many other bloggers have contributed information as well that was not gleaned from Flyertalk but was original thought and content.
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
My suggestion about bloggers remains the same as it always has: pick the few that provide you with content you want and don't read the rest. Why would you read or even bother to complain about the balance? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Just my personal opinion but I think what is hurting Flyertalk is the tone of some of the posts. My buddy Bikeguy illustrated it best to me with this quote from his Faces of Flyertalk post and I paraphrase:
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
May 9, 2012 | 6:43 pm
#291
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Posts: 5,955
Great thread, I'm only 1/2 way through and have to go sleep now but I can see the sense in what is being said here and it has really opened my eyes.
No more spoon feeding will be done by me any more on FT, period!
I was actually considering starting an invite only forum in order to avoid killing good deals as I have met about 10 or so like minded and very knowledgeable people through FT but if there's one out there already we'd love to be a part of it. PM me if you think I'm worthy
I think FT kills deals too
No more spoon feeding will be done by me any more on FT, period!
I was actually considering starting an invite only forum in order to avoid killing good deals as I have met about 10 or so like minded and very knowledgeable people through FT but if there's one out there already we'd love to be a part of it. PM me if you think I'm worthy
I think FT kills deals too
May 9, 2012 | 6:56 pm
#292
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Upcountry Maui, HI
Posts: 13,722
see? That's exactly what happens.
So who are the privileged few? Who decides? Who gets the info and who doesn't? Who gave you the right to decide any of that?
FT has always been about sharing info for everybody. That's why Randy started FT. So he could "answer just one more question from one more person".
But there are always some that blame Mr Pickles or the guy that wrote about FD or Ingy or Mommy Points for sharing too much info, but yeah, we have 400k members. And guess what? The deals get better and better.
Once you decide otherwise, you start on that slippery slope, where you get to use the info you find here, but decide its too valuable to share with FT so you keep it to yourself, thus turning yourself turn into an FT leech.
This debate will never end. This is just the current form of it.
-David
So who are the privileged few? Who decides? Who gets the info and who doesn't? Who gave you the right to decide any of that?
FT has always been about sharing info for everybody. That's why Randy started FT. So he could "answer just one more question from one more person".
But there are always some that blame Mr Pickles or the guy that wrote about FD or Ingy or Mommy Points for sharing too much info, but yeah, we have 400k members. And guess what? The deals get better and better.
Once you decide otherwise, you start on that slippery slope, where you get to use the info you find here, but decide its too valuable to share with FT so you keep it to yourself, thus turning yourself turn into an FT leech.
This debate will never end. This is just the current form of it.
-David
May 9, 2012 | 7:36 pm
#294
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,677
The market for true credit card churners is tiny. Most people either don't have good credit to begin with, or they are always waiting to refinance, or they are too lazy/scared/skeptic/uncomfortable with the whole idea. Like I said in another thread, think about how many of your own friends and relatives have taken on this opportunity after you told them. In my case it's zero (well, with an exception of one who bugs me all the time to do his work for him).
).
May 9, 2012 | 7:38 pm
#295
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,443
There's no such thing as "family blogging". It's just regular blogging, but rather than redeeming for Lufthansa first class, you're redeeming for AA coach to Orlando...
May 9, 2012 | 7:52 pm
#296
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,443
So let me see if I understand this. You find good info on a blogger's site. You then use that tip for your own financial gain, all in the meantime killing the referral part of the link so the blogger could have nothing for providing you with that valuable information? Would that be your plan?
You, sir/madam, are a great sport and my new personal hero.
You, sir/madam, are a great sport and my new personal hero.
I'm sure those who don't live at Oneworld hubs don't mind paying for each segment they fly. Charging domestic first at 3x the price of coach? Just part of the joys of Avios...
May 9, 2012 | 7:53 pm
#297
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 177
I think the OP has a very good point. That loopholes and the like are all too quickly shared and thus closed off (usually by the time I get to them because I'm not fast enough).
Buy I think FT in this regard are victims of their own success. FT is an extremely popular site and has many thousands of members visiting everyday. So I don't believe it's the other bloggers and forums that are ruining these loopholes. I bet all the blogs and bloggers combined don't have the reader base that FT does, and I don't think they are the problem.
Just a guess.
I think a closed network as someone else suggested would help slow down things but it wouldn't last long. Eventually someone outside of the closed network will figure out the same loophole and post it somewhere. It's like music torrents. It just takes 1.
Buy I think FT in this regard are victims of their own success. FT is an extremely popular site and has many thousands of members visiting everyday. So I don't believe it's the other bloggers and forums that are ruining these loopholes. I bet all the blogs and bloggers combined don't have the reader base that FT does, and I don't think they are the problem.
Just a guess.
I think a closed network as someone else suggested would help slow down things but it wouldn't last long. Eventually someone outside of the closed network will figure out the same loophole and post it somewhere. It's like music torrents. It just takes 1.
May 9, 2012 | 7:56 pm
#298
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: UA Plat, Copa Pres. Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Hilton Diamond, SPG LT Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 769
At the end of the day, aren't we basically saying that what while it used to be easy to take the entire bucket of Halloween candy from the poor little airline, now there are a lot more hands in that bucket, and so we can only get candy by the fistful?
In other words, you gotta be a little faster, and there's less candy for each individual person... but there's still a lot of candy to be had, and it's still pretty damn easy
In other words, you gotta be a little faster, and there's less candy for each individual person... but there's still a lot of candy to be had, and it's still pretty damn easy
May 9, 2012 | 7:59 pm
#299
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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Sharon,
I'm not offended either. I just find your friend's predicament too funny. She should not have any trouble finding blogs specifically dedicated to travel reports. There are plenty of those, and they are written by people who pay for their travels the hard/traditional way and have nothing to do with credit cards. Even funnier, a lot of folks whining about the bloggers here on Flyertalk hate travel reports and wish there were no distractions from earning/finding/manufacturing miles and points. A blogger who can make everyone happy has not been born yet.
I also find it funny that your friend would rather sign up for a credit card on a CC website for a smaller (in 99% of the cases) sign up bonus, all just in order to make sure that the blogger in question does not get paid. Going to those extremes brings to mind an old adage about the conflict between the nose and the face.
Just saying.
I'm not offended either. I just find your friend's predicament too funny. She should not have any trouble finding blogs specifically dedicated to travel reports. There are plenty of those, and they are written by people who pay for their travels the hard/traditional way and have nothing to do with credit cards. Even funnier, a lot of folks whining about the bloggers here on Flyertalk hate travel reports and wish there were no distractions from earning/finding/manufacturing miles and points. A blogger who can make everyone happy has not been born yet.
I also find it funny that your friend would rather sign up for a credit card on a CC website for a smaller (in 99% of the cases) sign up bonus, all just in order to make sure that the blogger in question does not get paid. Going to those extremes brings to mind an old adage about the conflict between the nose and the face.
Just saying.
But she signed up for some blogs cuz they were FTers & thus figured she'd get more input re: travel because they were. She just didn't expect the daily posts to be basically credit card churns.
And come on, let's face it - a lot of them are simply that at this point. For those that are into churning, good on ya as the saying goes. Those folk can then choose which of the (many) bloggers they want to give the referral fee.
I have no idea of whether my friend went to a credit card's site to sign up or did decide that she'd go through a blogger or didn't bother applying at all. I just know what she said at the time.
I'll have to take your word for it that the ONLY way a person can get a BETTER offer from a credit card company is to ONLY go through a blogger's referral link - and that they can't get it any other way
BTW - as others have said, for every person chasing down (whatever) travel deal there is, there are plenty of other travelers who are oblivous & don't actually give 2 patooties, so I don't see bloggers as any more threatening than I see FT or the guy sitting next to me on the plane who discovered some deal. Some will take advantage of stuff; others won't. It all works out in the end.
PS - To get back to the OP's question. No, bloggers are not ruining FT. I think bloggers would have a long way to go to cover the breath of topics, regions, frequent flyer programs, commmnity that FT offers.
Cheers.
May 9, 2012 | 8:05 pm
#300
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,443
At the end of the day, aren't we basically saying that what while it used to be easy to take the entire bucket of Halloween candy from the poor little airline, now there are a lot more hands in that bucket, and so we can only get candy by the fistful?
In other words, you gotta be a little faster, and there's less candy for each individual person... but there's still a lot of candy to be had, and it's still pretty damn easy
In other words, you gotta be a little faster, and there's less candy for each individual person... but there's still a lot of candy to be had, and it's still pretty damn easy