That converts to an exchange rate of 22.91191 Pounds to the Dollar on the US Airways Forex

([120589/1000]*19)/100

Gonna really kill off tourism in England?

Too bad I can't use $100 paypal $ and buy 120K US Airways miles. That would buy 2 off peak Biz seats US-Europe on US. Availability is limited but was able to use 120K from my US account for my wife & I LAX-PHL-MAD. Less than $40pp in taxes. ^

to be fair I doubt the fault lies with points.com I am sure it lies with the airlines as they will not offer squat to points.com points.com will never be attractive unless airlines buy and sell without a huge spread and that seems very unlikely to happen.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people will assert "fleecing", or sometimes even fraud or scams, for *completely voluntary and transparent transactions*. Points.com isn't misleading anyone... they clearly publish their conversion rates and make good on them. If you don't like them, you don't need to be "fleeced"... just don't use them. Look elsewhere, or don't convert points at all. Points.com is a private business, not a public service nor a charity, and is entitled to set whatever price they'd like in the pursuit of profits. If McDonald's raised the price of their cheeseburger to $50, would you assert it is a scam/fraud/fleecing, too?

Yeah, "fleecing" is probably too strong but I think the OP was using this term because the target audience (FT readers) relate very well to the horrible exchange rates Points.com offers. Yeah, I doubt that Points.com could be taken to civil court for its outrageous rates. Incidentally, another example of this kind of business are the Payday loan firms. Yeah, the users---er, probably most of them---volutarily enter into a transaction for a cash advance and sometimes pay just outrageous interest charges on a short-term loan (I still don't understand why usury laws don't apply to these types of loans) Okay, maybe "fleece" isn't the right term but "reamed, soaked" or something. Some foreign exchange outfits (especially at some airports) probably, one could argue, near "fleece" people who are naive about foreign exchange business. Re the McDonald's scenario: well, if McDonald's started charging $50 for a cheeseburger, I think there would have to be rather huge flashing signs all over the place since, I imagine, many people just order w/o looking at the menu prices!

The "miles for cash" or "miles to pay for your ticket" are an absolute scam. While I don't remember the exact dollar or mileage amounts, last summer my wife and I were putting together a trip DFW/FRA/FLR/MUC/DFW. The booking was Lufthansa in business class. Quoted fare was in the $20K range for the two of us. AMEX was more than happy to suggest that I buy the tickets and they would use Reward points to pay for them at $.01 per point, meaning burning about 2,000,000 of my AMEX points. Instead I transferred about $250K Amex points to my CO OnePass account and used 10% of the points that AMEX was suggesting

That's my point. A bad deal doesn't equate to "fleecing"; it is merely something you should avoid. For that matter, points.com very low conversion rates are actually the best option for some people interested in quickly liquidating points they have no other use or desire for.

Anyone may be taken to court. To assert that a fairly disclosed and marketed bad deal would make them liable is preposterous.

High risk loans won't be offered unless high rates may be coupled with them. There is nothing "fleecing" about such arrangements, and the mere existence of silly usury laws doesn't make them inherently logical. Paying a very high rate makes perfect sense for some people, and it's a grave mistake for others. A properly-run business that offers a deal that some may foolishly use (while others wisely use) doesn't mean that business is fleecing; it simply means they are making money off some stupid people.

No, they don't "fleece" either. They charge high rates that can be beat elsewhere. There's nothing immoral nor illegal about it. Someone willing to pay the rate or not willing to research alternatives first is responsible for their actions, as such outfits fully disclose their exchange rates. I just returned from London and I was in a situation where I found myself short-handed for cash, and despite knowing the many more frugal options available, decided to waste essentially $5 in conversion fees to save myself time and stress. Others might make the transaction not knowing better. None of us are being "fleeced".

Not giving a customer full disclosure of the price being paid and/or a fair chance to remedy the situation if they are misled is a completely different issue than "fleecing" as it relates to a bad deal or exorbitant price. Any business should be free to offer products and services at rates that are unappealing to most, should they choose.

Incorrect. You need a refresher on what "scam" means. A bad deal is not a scam, and in this case, Amex is not scamming because they clearly disclose the value you receive. If 1 cent per point is not a desirable return, don't use it. For that matter, 1 cent per point *does* appeal to many people who aren't inclined to use their points in a more lucrative manner. For example, someone with 10,000 points that are near expiration, who doesn't plan to use the airline much in the future, and has no interest in extending expiration and babysitting the account.

as stated in every instance I see a thread about points.com...

DNU - DO NOT USE!

Here are examples as to why I know this:


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...ot-joking.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...oints-com.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-zip-code.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...nd-2005-a.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-com-saga.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/s-p-m...dishonest.html


coup de gr�ce:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...-per-mile.html

It is not TOTALLY useless. If you get a small number of miles in a programme because you take a flight on an airline you would never ever normally use, you can usually convert them to something you can use. Yes, the rate is terrible (my 1000 US miles got me 100 Priority Club points!) but that is 100 PC points more than I would otherwise have had ....

(And I got some PC bonus points during a 'use our partners' promo!)

When the ratios are this out of whack (particularly the US numbers) I do consider it a fleecing. When you read the quote from the PayPal guy - "Airline customers who are frustrated with blackout dates, and the lack of availability of rewards redemption options can now get their money quickly into their PayPal account and then spend the money the way they�d like." - it is clear that their goal is to take advantage of the uninformed rather than help a consumer make an informed decision. Any business transaction that is based on only one side understanding the actual value of the transaction is a scam, even if the terms are fully documented.

...and I have transferred say 3000 miles to another person using the airline's portal for doing this, which is essentially operated by points.com and it has in fact worked. But it is not 100% reliable.

There have been instances where this practice has NOT worked for me and others... where some glitch takes place--who knows what (system upgrade, an issue with your computer, theirs, the airlines', whatever). It is in this area where I will note that one should have avoided points.com. They are not equipped/willing to help fix things if and when they go wrong. Hence, the best thing to do is to avoid them if possible!

For example, if those 1,000 US miles of yours did not convert over for you to PC, how much effort would you have put in to recovering them? Given that, after several phone calls to each party, both PC and US tell you to deal with Points.com, what would you think you would do about it and what would you expect Points.com to do about it for you? All I can say is that if your miles transferred over to PC then you were dayummmm lucky! Problems with them HAVE happened and they have never fixed them for people.

To me a good company is one that can solve issues when they go wrong, not operate as if they never will go wrong or deny it when they do and not even have the personnel available to solve said issues.

I agree 100%!

You may consider it "fleecing", but by definition, it is not because it is *voluntary*. No one is being taken advantage of, as everything is fully disclosed. If there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't stay in business. If there's an opportunity for a company to profit by offering more lucrative conversion rates, a wise entrepreneur should create it.

In my option, casinos are a bad deal. Insurance is a bad deal. Guess what I do? I avoid them. I'd never claim they are fleecing willing participants.

but casinos also offer education on how to avoid the problems associated with gambling and there are other things to do there

Yes, but that's outside the scope of my analogy. Casinos also have blackjack tables and cocktails, while Points.com does not... so? My analogy was intended to show how businesses about that sell something that is a bad deal or otherwise undesirable or has better alternatives. As long as they are open and honest with their pricing, they aren't fleecing anyone, they are simply catering to the fools who provide the demand.