Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Dec 3, 2013, 2:55 pm

#9676

5DMarkIIguy

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 796

Same tired arguments

1. $100 fare
2. 1% of real fare
3. 1000 * 15k/ticket = 15 mil damage.

Wow, what's wrong with these people?

Dec 3, 2013, 3:03 pm

#9677

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,409

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5DMarkIIguy

Same tired arguments

1. $100 fare
2. 1% of real fare
3. 1000 * 15k/ticket = 15 mil damage.

Wow, what's wrong with these people?

somebody will correct me on this... but my thoughts are that Swiss can't simply 'reinstate' the original tickets. they have been cancelled. and there is no applicable fare for the route.

if Swiss is going to reinstate the original itinerary, aren't they gonna have to ticket as agent for the various airlines involved? so they will need to pay SQ for example the full whack for use of their suites?

while they could ignore the cost implication of their own flights, how does it fit with other carriers? I'm sure SQ isn't going to sit back and accept a % of the $650 fare, x1000 tickets, for their suites (and simply honour the tickets as a matter of goodwill.)

Dec 3, 2013, 3:12 pm

#9678

onlysuites

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Sep 2003

Programs: BA Silver, EY Gold, HH Diamond, IHG Plat

Posts: 12,214

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

I would assume so. I know someone who got one reissued at current fare (not through CTA). I believe it was around £3500 for a Business seat.

Pseudo Nim, what was your ticket reissued at? Is there a way to check via Amadeus ETR or any other way?

Dec 3, 2013, 3:22 pm

#9679

cruisr

Join Date: Dec 2004

Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium

Posts: 4,439

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

IMHO I believe that LX will most definitely have to pay the other airlines for the carriage of the passenger. This of course will cost them, a lot. Maybe that will cost them the 15k x 1000 tkts.........

Dec 3, 2013, 3:27 pm

#9680

5DMarkIIguy

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 796

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

Again, they got a lot of money from NH for the NRT-ZRH route. Those tickets would not have been sold otherwise.
In the end, it will probably cancel out. Most tickets were on their own stock anyway.

Dec 3, 2013, 3:47 pm

#9681

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,409

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5DMarkIIguy

Again, they got a lot of money from NH for the NRT-ZRH route. Those tickets would not have been sold otherwise.
In the end, it will probably cancel out. Most tickets were on their own stock anyway.

being on the airline's own stock doesn't matter except for the portions of travel it is undertaking itself (for example it could carry FOC on the ZHR-YUL legs operated by Swiss).

If LX tickets for SQ, LX has to pay SQ. They are ticketing as agent for SQ.

I don't know what the YY fare is RGN-YUL, but SQ doesn't offer a fare RGN-ZRH (it didn't from the dummy booking I just tried to make).

Checking Expedia a fare for MH/SQ RGN-ZRH came in at ~USD9000 - although the SQ fare SIN-ZRH in suites was only around USD6000 - so they could knock a fair amount off that $9000 by constructing ticketing differently.

However - even allowing $1000 for RGN-SIN (to connect with the SQ suites for $6000) that still comes in at $7000 excluding carriage by LX. x1000.

Dec 3, 2013, 5:12 pm

#9682

everywhere

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 5,984

The potential cost at full fare of reinstating the tickets is a spurious argument.

It conveniently ignores the fact that the complainants would likely accept tickets in LX F SIN-ZRH-YUL if LX offered them instead (subject to making this option attractive - e.g. not collecting the YQ).

Or that LX could turn around and sue ATPCO for damages.

Or the ongoing cost to LX of retaining counsel on this matter.

Dec 3, 2013, 7:30 pm

#9683

coolfish1103

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: CAN, LAX, TPE

Programs: AA, AS, CI, DL, UA

Posts: 2,899

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

Then don't cancel it in the first place.

Some of your arguments are hilarious if people bother to read the past 600 pages.

Dec 3, 2013, 7:38 pm

#9684

AA_EXP09

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Oct 2011

Location: Anywhere I need to be.

Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond

Posts: 16,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

A class comes in at S$14K (base fare) oneway (on the 388)
Funny how I got this message
1 SQ 997Z 19MAR RGNSIN SS1 1025A 305P * WE E 2
2 SQ 346A 20MAR SINZRH SS1 130A 750A * TH E 2
>X2/0R
STANDBY - BOOKING VIA LINK IN PROGRESS
>
SELL RESTRICTED - CALL AIRLINE * *
UNABLE TO CANCEL
>

Dec 4, 2013, 4:16 am

#9685

whimike

Join Date: Nov 2011

Location: West Coast, USA

Programs: Skywards Platinum

Posts: 3,747

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruisr

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

If LX tickets for SQ, LX has to pay SQ. They are ticketing as agent for SQ.

I don't know what the YY fare is RGN-YUL, but SQ doesn't offer a fare RGN-ZRH (it didn't from the dummy booking I just tried to make).

Checking Expedia a fare for MH/SQ RGN-ZRH came in at ~USD9000 - although the SQ fare SIN-ZRH in suites was only around USD6000 - so they could knock a fair amount off that $9000 by constructing ticketing differently.

However - even allowing $1000 for RGN-SIN (to connect with the SQ suites for $6000) that still comes in at $7000 excluding carriage by LX. x1000.

That is the risk that LX took in canceling tickets. If they didn't cancel tickets, they would only have had to pay SQ, NH, et al, their % of the YY fare. LX cancelled simply so that they wouldn't have to honor segments on LX metal at this low cost. (I am not aware of any itineraries that had LX code-shares on other carriers metal in F) In fact, on some of the tickets I had on LX stock, they had NH code-shares of LH metal (and thus LH group would have earned full "A" fare for that leg from NH), offsetting any actual loss LX would have had transporting ZRH-YUL. (If we consider it from LH Group overall profits.)

The fact that LX is now on the hook for $15k/ticket is due to their actions of cancellation. Had they not cancelled their actual cost would have been a fraction of what it is now, the YY fare no longer exists and they will have to pay SQ, NH, et al the full price.

It is also worth pointing out that NH, SQ, etc... had no problem accepting the % of YY fare to transport passengers on their flights, even on LX ticket stock. Frankly, I think LX shot itself in the foot.